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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think the Daily Mail should come with a mental health warning?

39 replies

MNHubbie · 16/05/2010 19:28

Today or yesterday's Hate Mail (DW spotted article in the rag at my father's house and I didn't note what day it was from) featured something that could arguably be called an article by someone called Hitchins. In his article he did not state it was his opinion but that it was a "FACT" that ADHD doesn't exist and that shrinks and doctors are ripping people off. He then went on to attack Ben Goldacre (not by name but by profession) for not having exposed this horror.

OK. Does anyone know who this journalist is? What are his clinical and psychiatric qualifications to make this statement? What double-blind studies has he done in this area? Has he published reviews of other people's work to support his conclusions? What is his standing amongst his peers as a scientist?

This is an incredible break-through he has made and it will fundamentally change everything. He claims that ADHD is caused by bad parenting! Wow, imagine what we can do now we know that.

Alternatively he is a lying little shit with no comprehension of what he is talking about and his pathetic little rant has the potential to endanger a huge amount of children. Getting understanding of conditions like ADHD, dyspraxia and Asperger's syndrome is difficult enough.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Ritalin. Unlike Mr Hitchin I don't claim to be an expert but here is one small thing to consider... if a drug acts as a stimulant to a large percentage of the population but as a depressant to those with an identified condition doesn't that kinda suggest the condition exists? It doesn't mean the pills are the best thing to take, that isn't my debate or point here, far from it I really don't want to get into that. My issue is with someone with no qualifications, expertise or experience denying the existence of something that is an everyday reality to a great many people.

Now if he is an expert then I'll want to see his research.

...talking of which he lays down a challenge to those who expose "bad science" to expose this... when he presents no facts, talks of no studies and presents a subjective opinion as an objective one... exactly the sort of thing Ben Goldacre and others attack!

So... am I wrong about this Hitchin guy, is he an expert in his field?

What do you think about the presentation of unsubstantiated opinions as facts in a national newspaper?

OP posts:
OrmRenewed · 18/05/2010 12:43

I don't think there is much point.

By the time you are voluntarily buying and reading the Mail regularly it's too late

FabIsGoingToGetFit · 18/05/2010 12:59

YABU

MNters like to knock the DM. For all the people who say they don't read it, they seem to know an awful lot about it..

Downdog · 18/05/2010 13:01

its Peter HITCHENS - and despite writing for the daily mail he is an award winning journalist. He is a Christian & conservative. He is known to be very outspoken on many subjects & by all accounts loves to stir things up with his bigmouth controversial opinions.

WIKI

I don't particularly care for him but I do like his much more interesting older brother

  • Christopher Hitchen's writes regularly for Vanity Fair among others. He considers himself to be NOT conservative and is an athiest. I do enjoy his writing.

Link to article OP refers to - it's a paragraph down the page.

It wasn't really an article, but a paragraph in an opinion column. Is his point entirely without substance? Is it too horrendous to think he maybe correct and perhaps 1000's of kids are being needlessly drugged? I don't know - but perhaps it's a valid question to always be asking?

Downdog · 18/05/2010 13:13

HITCHENS response to comments on his earlier ADHD rant. The comments make good reading too!

Oblomov · 18/05/2010 13:15

I read the DM from time to time. As I do watch the news, google information , read the telegraph when I'm at me mams. Funnily enough I have the inteliigence not to beleive everyhting I read/hear.
I don't know why people DM bash. Yes it can be shit and untrue. so can just about every other form of journalism/ newspaper.
It can be quite funny. Dh told me that the other day they had a list of who men think of to stop them coming. or was that in the sun ? who cares. apparently Emile Heskey is one of the top. Dh and I laffed. Then he told me that He thought of Margaret Thatcher. I never knew this. after 10 years, I never knew he thought of maggie

Lighten up.

Downdog · 18/05/2010 13:16

and HITCHENS answers most of your questions here

TheShriekingHarpy · 18/05/2010 13:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Downdog · 18/05/2010 14:03

interesting lunch hour reading Peters Hitchens writings on ADHD - links above. Thanks OP for raising this. Wherever you stand on the subject I don't think he can be dismissed as simply a raving DM writing loon.

On the subject of DM, I read it online, though I would never physically buy it. It's great for celebrity gossip & light relief in a working day & they have got the online newspaper format nailed. It is often ridiculous & I ignore it completely politically. Liz Jones makes me want to vomit - they do give a lot of attention to idiots. Their fashion makeovers etc are so awful I can't imagine people take them seriously. Maybe they do - but you can't put all DM (online) readers into one catagory and dismiss them, just like all "ADHD" sufferers shouldn't be treated the same with the same mind altering drugs?

However I think Peter Hitchens is one of the DM's more credible & intelligent writers.

TheShreikingHarpy - many thanks for the link. have bookmarked that for another time - back to work for me now.

MNHubbie · 18/05/2010 23:31

Very credible and intelligent to start his responses in the way he has. His argument is basically "I'm right and if you disagree you are wrong regardless of experience or qualifications". He then counter points with arguments about being allowed an opinion quite ignoring the difference between stating something as your own opinion and stating something as fact.

He has presented a large body of information that frankly just before bedtime I don't want to trawl through but none of that was in his "article". Lazy journalism and that is the point.

If I have the time I'll read through some of it tomorrow but on a scan read I saw a lot of subjective comments and weak inductive arguments which are typical journalist tricks but as I haven't read it fully I'll reserve judgement.

Oblo who is Emile Heskie?

Fabis... I'm being unreasonable because my father buys the paper and I see it there? I don't follow your reasoning.

Jollster and Takingloving thank you for the links, very funny.

OP posts:
Downdog · 19/05/2010 10:13

His 'article' was one paragraph long - and as he states he had been banging on about this for years - so nothing is new. Also, with just a couple of clicks of the mouse, all the other articles are available to anyone who wants a little more beef/history of his viewpoint.

As for giving opinions, as there seems to be no scientific evidence or scientific diagnostic tests for ADHD, isn't everything on the subject opinion?

FWIW I think his caution against prescribing mind altering drugs to huge swathes of small children (which is his main objection) is a very wise one and a point worth making. If my child was being diagnosed with ADHD I'd certainly be doing some research for a variety of opinions before I started giving my child such serious medication.

MNHubbie · 19/05/2010 19:14

We were not discussing medication nor the existence of ADHD but a frankly pathetic article in isolation.

It matters not if you are a fan of this frankly rather distasteful individual and know his every article and favourite rants. It also matters not if the extra material is just a click away. The tiny paragraph with him stating his uninformed opinion as a fact is all someone gets if they read the paper.

I will have a look at the article later properly but TBH the fact that you've immediately picked up on the "no diagnostic test" angle just proves my point. There is quite a list of illnesses and syndromes for which there is no diagnostic test (and it is a well accepted and respected process) but a process of elimination including dyspraxia and M.E. but no doubt the writer doesn't believe in them either. I guess people with M.E. are just lazy and dyspraxics are just clumsy and a little dotty in the head then?

OP posts:
MarthaFarquhar · 19/05/2010 19:18

In our house P. Hitchens is referred to as "Bad Hitchens".

Snobear4000 · 19/05/2010 21:07

Some more funny headlines:

Pakistani who 'killed husband' in 20ft Kashmir fireball gets £1,300-a-month benefits in Britain

and get this:

Drug company where manager 'showed women porn' ordered to pay $250million in damages for sex discrimination

What's better is that these headlines are from today's genuine mail online.

MNHubbie · 19/05/2010 22:55

OK I started reading the article linked to above and have made a few comments below. I'd gotten 3 pages in of 9 (I copied over to Word) before I got bored with typing the same thing over and over again so I apologise for not typing more:

?To say that you have been 'insulted' is to refuse to accept that there may be some truth in what I say, possibly because you have some doubts about the matter yourself.?
What gibberish! Because you don't accept what I say to be fact you must doubt your own beliefs? First sentence and he has made no sense.

?In fact I often find that angry, personal vehemence in an argument is a sign that the person involved has serious doubts about his or her position.?
Or have just had an unqualified oik insult them, their child and their doctor?

?a complaint for which there is no established, objective test.?
Much like M.E. Dyspraxia and many others then? No big horror show here it is normal practice from professionals with years of experience... they wouldn't expect an unqualified columnist to be able to do it.

?Anything else is speculation, not fact or knowledge. If someone wants to say that there is something called 'ADHD', and prescribe actual drugs for it, the burden is on him to prove it by experiment, and to present a proof which could be exploded by new discoveries.?
Oh! You mean like the basic, simple fact that whether you like the idea of Ritalin or not there is the inescapable truth that it is a stimulant akin to speed for those who don't have ADHD yet it acts as a chemical depressant on those with it?

?'ADHD', which is generally done by a subjective assessment.?
Yawn... change the record. Lots of conditions are diagnosed the same way.

?I must also stress that, if you have been told that your child is suffering from a 'disorder', that does not actually mean that this must be so. Sceptics and doubters may be right.?
Not denying that this could be the case but this is a weak argument and it is the same one used by flat Earthers, Intelligent design believers and Global Warming deny-ists.

?Doctors, regrettably, are often mistaken. Medical practice, even in physical medicine, undergoes fashions and fads just like every other field of human activity. Some examples: To my own knowledge, 23 years ago parents were told that the best way to avoid cot death was to lie babies face down. Five years later, the advice was the exact opposite. Putting them face down was likely to be fatal, and they must be laid on their backs. In the mid-20th century many psychiatrists believed that pre-frontal lobotomy was a miracle treatment. It is now universally decried as a barbaric and destructive operation.?
23 years ago, 60 years ago... Doctors still make mistakes, doctors still improve. To say that you should disbelieve your doctor because doctors have made mistakes is idiotic. Questioning your doctor is one thing but this is stupidity. This, in fact, is the same form of stupidity that caused people to stop getting vaccinations done endangering the lives of children.

?But neurologists are often extremely vague about how they operate and why they have the effects that they do have.?
Which is actually true of a huge amount of the drugs we use and is hardly news. Yawn... scare mongering...

?In my childhood, operations for tonsillectomy were routinely given to children with nothing seriously wrong with them. Shoe shops provided machines in which you could X-ray your own feet, machines which were believed to be wholly safe and advertised as such. Most first-aid textbooks recommended treating burns by putting greasy creams on them, now acknowledged to be one of the worst things you can possibly do. When I first became a blood donor, in the 1970s, I was given iron pills by the nurse and told to take them without fail. This is now considered unnecessary, and possibly harmful. And so on.?
Please scare us some more Mr Scary Columnist! All utterly irrelevant.
?It is perfectly reasonable for informed laymen to question the wisdom of doctors, and often wise to do so.?
On a case by case basis not to deny the existence of an entire condition! For him to do that is utterly irresponsible especially when medical opinion in general is against him.

?I did once respond to such an offer, asking the writer to name a date. I warned that I spent rather a long time in the bathroom in the morning, but promised to bring my own wine and do my own laundry and ironing. But I heard nothing more, perhaps because I added . "I can assure you that, even if I spent a year in your home, I should still not be persuaded that 'ADHD' exists." How can I be so sure? Why wouldn't I be influenced by daily contact with a badly-behaved or uncontrollable child??
So he has a closed mind, is rude and sarcastic.

?Many modern British and American children, especially young boys, cause their parents and their teachers great difficulty. They defy authority, they run wild, they break things, they yell and shout and are horrible to their brothers and sisters.?
Because this has never happened in the past has it? Oh wait things may even have been worse but, of course, everyone has a rose-tinted view of the past. There were no wild riots, football hooliganism, criminal gangs or anything like that was there? There was no open defiance of teachers... You know what I love? When a parent tells me that things were much better in their day and that kids wouldn't dare misbehave... and then another time quite forgetting that they defend their child being caught smoking by saying 'at least he wasn't actually smoking in class like I used to'

?It just proves that in modern Western societies there are a lot of ill-behaved boys. The question is not "do children behave badly in increasing numbers, especially at school?" Everyone knows this is the case.?
Do they? Really? Where is your study? Where is your evidence? There were riots in schools, violent beatings, attacks on teachers, outright defiance. Schools were not all flowers and butterflies in the past.

?One of the problems with the diagnosis of 'ADHD' is that it covers such an extraordinarily broad range of behaviours including -in my experience - children who may actually suffer from birth trauma or brain damage, and children who are merely wilful and obstinate, or are driven to distraction by dull schools and bad teachers.?
'In my experience' is a weasel phrase isn't it? No evidence again. I like the change of subject to something nice and horrific like brain damage and birth trauma. This is a great bit of muddying the water. No evidence, no proof just scare mongering.

?Worse, it closes the subject.?
Actually the subject is open and being actively researched his argument closes the subject.

?If they are all suffering from a treatable physical disorder, then we need not worry about our debased family life and our useless schools.?
Relevance? Evidence? Our schools have been improving dramatically and have a tremendous standing in the world. How dare he openly insult them without any proof or evidence being presented. What exactly is meant by 'debased family life'? What evidence is there of it? How general is this sweeping statement?

?And the small minority of children who do actually have something physically wrong with them are dosed with drugs that pacify them, and their real problems are ignored and go uninvestigated This means firstly they are not treated, and secondly that medical knowledge ceases to advance. The 'diagnosis' of 'ADHD' helps none of those to whom it is applied. But it gets a lot of adults off the hook of responsibility and closes off scientific inquiry.?
Proof? Evidence? Again nice rabble-rousing but no real details.

?Even if some of these children do actually have a physical defect curable by drugs, they cannot conceivably all be the same - six or seven million children now in the USA, hundreds of thousands in Britain.?
Why not?

?Among the 'ADHD' children are those who have been exposed to an enormous amount of TV from early infancy, or to violent computer games. There are those who suffer from an almost total absence of physical exercise, and those who have never been introduced to a routine of mealtimes and bedtimes, and so are unwilling to adapt to any environment in which there are routines and timetables.?
'Amongst the' Love it! This is exactly the same argument folks use to link computer games and crime. 'He played a car theft game and stole a car.' Which, of course ignores the millions who play the games and don't steal cars and all those who steal cars and don't play the game.

OP posts:
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