In not having much sympathy with a couple on £45k plus per year having some benefits cut?

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There is loads of this on the news just now about how "middle income" families will be having some child tax credits cut and might be paying more tax. They news are showing what to me looks like comfortable off families having to do with a bit less. Is this really so bad? I know an income of £45-£50k per year might not be much in central London but will keep you in style in parts of the north, but how bad will it be? So people might have to change jobs/give up the second car/holiday at home instead of Spain every year? SO WHAT? There are plenty of us living on less than £25k a year who have had to cut back since having kids and take this as a fact of life.

I know MN is made up of mostly middle earners and I'll get pelters for this, but I don't really care. Anyone I know on a middle income can afford to give up some things _ its called life.

and i agree brogan, it is great to support the economy but families also need to be supported, CHILDREN are OUR future, they will be supporting the economy in years to come etc.

adn btw i have NOTHING against working mothers, some of my best friends work and when i can i help them out with childcare, for FREE, because i am a friend.

it really was a choice of what is right for OUR family and as individuals we all need to make our own choices or in some cases do what has to be done because there is no choice.

Ay, more work, more production.

It's not just about the benefit to the economy though - it's about eradicating child poverty as well. Too many children were being brought up in poverty because women (generally) couldn't work.

i always knew id work and raise family,booked nursery 12wk pg.both parents worked full time.instilled a good work ethic in me,and i worked hard for my career.sahm was never an option.i love working it defines me,gives me validation,sense of self.it is pivotal to whom i am

Agree with pocketmonster 100%. While it's fine on a theoretical level to consider it a 'luxury' for someone to want to return to work, the current economy relies on it. The Government pays for it for that reason and that reason alone: it isn't because some greedy 45K income buggers have the expectation of state subsidisation for their personal fulfilment.

and thats another debate, WHAT counts as poverty?

some would say not having internet at home, not having holidays etc, but surely they ARE luxuries?

a holiday to us is a BIG luxury, and not one that we can really afford, without scrimping or inviting a friend along to help share the cost. but i dont see my children as deprived because of that, likewise them not having the latest designer gear etc or having hand me down clothes does not mean that they are suffering.

even my streetwise ten year old would agree with me there, hell he would love a ps3 or an xbox, we cant afford it, so hes not getting it, he doesnt feel hard done by and realises that in the big scheme of things he is lucky. (we have been watching the blood, sweat and luxuries series and he has been watching it with us and he was horrified as some the the brits that went over, particularly the 19yr old that doesn work but has her apartment and car paid for by her parents, he thought she was a spoilt brat)

its really difficult and its peoples nature to judge, to me a 50k a year job for either me or dp would mean i would think we were WELL off, but for others they are not, depending on where they live, transport costs etc.

really we all need to look at our own lifestyles and see where, if anywhere we can make cutback, because we are all going to have to.

thanks scottishmummy, that is a perfectly valid reason for wanting to work

whenever i hear "i have NOTHING againstinsert any pilloried group i know they do have something against said group.by the faux protestations,attempts at distancing self from attitudinal beliefs and the inevitable criticism that follows

and mrsbean i dont think we have called it a luxury, just questioned whether it may be seen as a luxury, i said myself that i think economically for the country it is beter for them to top up someones earnings so they can afford childcare as it puts more into the system.

whether the gov deems that they need to keep doing so however is another question

• Scottish I really dont' have anything against any group apart from the one that I think most rational people have something against........and that group is those on benefits that could work, but simply can't be arsed.

ok scottishmummy, think that if you like.

i chose not to work because its what suits MY family circumstances, that was all. i dont think having a working or a non working parent makes a huge difference to the kids i meet, they all seem fairly well adjusted to me, its what works for their families.

i ASKED why some chose to work when they are STRUGGLING to afford it, because i was interested and got some answers, if you dont ask then you wont learn and i got the impression, rightly or wrongly on this and other thread, that people ARE struggling with it and if so why do it, but if it makes them happy, is what they feel is right for them then good on them!

can't argue with scottishmummy here.

getting a mortgage is a choice, too.

maybe if more people rented instead of overstretching themselves with these mortgages (i can see why they do, though) tenancy laws might change here.

adn for me btw, it would be a struggle to afford to work and pay childcare, the stress would affect my health negatively, i know as i have suffered from stress before and so it isnt worth it from that point of view.

i would quite like to get a part time job, but it simply isnt feasable with the hours that my dp works.

do you think that would make tenancy laws change, we rented before we bought and it was a nightmare, we moved 5 times in 7years? due to being given notice, problems with damp etc, i would have LOVED to stay in one of our rented houses, it was lovely a 3 bed semi, with a lovely garden in a fantastic area, but the damp was affecting mine and the children health, IT COULD have been fixed, but the landlord didnt give a dam and just kept painting over it, and in one room even simply put up plasterboard to cover it, making the room a couple of inches smaller, he didnt even clean it off the walls before he did that!

we paid privately for a specialst to come in to assess it and said what needed to be done, they were horrified at what the landlord had done, but the landlord didnt care. so we then moved and had to go to a smaller property with no garden.

and like i said on another thread we were on together expat, the only reason we were able to put down a deposit and buy was because of a death in the family, if not we would still be renting.

i have a few friends who have moved here from germany and they are astounded by the renting problem and the buying culture as they typically rent for years and are allowed to decorate, make the place their own etc, shame its not the same here.

there are going to be fewer and fewer who can afford to buy at all in the future, and the more who rent, eventually, hopefully, the greater change will have to come of it.

the paradigm will have to shift in so many ways.

Phew! Have just finised the entire thread!!

All who have posted should read "The Raggered Trousered Philanthropists" by Robert Tressell. . .

i have read it mousemummy, a few years ago now and my brain addled by pregnancy hormones is struggling to remember it! but its sat on the bookshelf in the living room, once i have got the kids to bed i may have a read, and i REALLY should be putting the kids to bed, NOT sat here on mumsnet

our children will have uni debts,pay off PFI debts.unfortunately saddled with many burdens.just that in uk home ownership is seen as be all end all.there will need to be attitudinal shifts and enhanced tenure and rights for tenants

my mum and dad live in rental in scheme we grew up in.growing up we couldn't afford to buy

4madboys - it'll probably take you less time to re-read than it's taken me to read this!!!!

my dad was RAF and so they didnt buy until the left the RAF which was after i had left home to go to uni, but they wanted somewhere that they could call their home after moving round for over 30+ years.

we bought because renting was a nightmare, and we were fortunate enough to get an inheritance that meant we could. i am not sure what having a mortgage gains us tbh, other than a bit of security, but its will be YEARS before we are anywhere near paying it off and i am guessing we will have to sell again to pay for our healthcare etc once we are old!

I agree about making renting a more desirable option.

We rent a house that is ours as long as we want it, we could not afford a house like this to buy and beacuse it is a special house it would be very rare for one like it to come on the market. The rent is reasonable as the owner has no mortgage to pay and was more concerned with the type of tenant she was getting that just getting money - we had to have an interview!

We treat it as our home, we have decorated, we are landscaping the gardens and have made modest improvements inside.

Despite the fact that most of my friends earn above a minimum wage very few own their own home, too few of them feel this way about their rented homes.

Tbh if I could afford to buy I either would not bother or would buy somewhere and rent it out so we could sell it in the future to fund rent when we retire. Because dp is more conerned about renting than me, this is what he wants to do.

I've argued on MN before until I'm blue in the face that it surely makes more economic sense for the govt to top up childcare when a women (or a man, I'm not biased!) can't afford to work otherwise, and I usually get shot down in flames with cries of "sense of entitlement!". Especially when I suggest that this should extend to families where the other partner earns 'so much' that they don't qualify for CTC as a family.

I can't see how it can possibly not be better for the economy to have everyone who want to work, working, topping up wherever and whenever necessary. There should, IMO, never be a situation where anyone is worse off working than not working, be it on JSA or by not qualifying for help with childcare.

I'm very pleased to see some people putting forward the same argument.

expat - rental prices here are about double our mortgage, and we bought at the height of property prices with a very low deposit. We'd be mad to rent!