In not having much sympathy with a couple on £45k plus per year having some benefits cut?

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There is loads of this on the news just now about how "middle income" families will be having some child tax credits cut and might be paying more tax. They news are showing what to me looks like comfortable off families having to do with a bit less. Is this really so bad? I know an income of £45-£50k per year might not be much in central London but will keep you in style in parts of the north, but how bad will it be? So people might have to change jobs/give up the second car/holiday at home instead of Spain every year? SO WHAT? There are plenty of us living on less than £25k a year who have had to cut back since having kids and take this as a fact of life.

I know MN is made up of mostly middle earners and I'll get pelters for this, but I don't really care. Anyone I know on a middle income can afford to give up some things _ its called life.

Brogan that is part of the problem we all seem to be working daft hours because we judge ourselves on the lastest promotion or through sustaining a ridiculous lifestyle.

Dp and I spent years keeping up with the jones, kidding ourselves that owning a house was the be all. We now earn less than most of our friends but are probably have the best quality of life. The only drawback is that we only have one child and may never be in a position to have that second.

no - I'm talking about extended family as well and the whole community thing which is lost in most areas now as often people don't even know their neighbours let alone anyone else on thes treet enough to ask for/give help with childcare.

I think that if everybody had access to a level playing field in terms of affordable childcare (or free) then the ability to survive on salaries paid (without the grey areas of tax credits bumping a low wage up and unsubsidised childcare bringing a high salary down) would be clearer. I have no problem with my friend (a highly paid professional) swanning around in DKNY as I know that the swanning arounhd happens in that teeny window of time she is not in the office/ at the mercy of her crackberry.

no - I'm talking about extended family as well and the whole community thing which is lost in most areas now as often people don't even know their neighbours let alone anyone else on the street enough to ask for/give help with childcare.

And look what happened to those 2 policewomen who swapped childcare, they were basically told to stop because we the government cannot monitor and tax you.

By penalising those earning over £45k is going to mean people are going to say stuff it and either give up work or change to part time to get the benefits.

The system won't be fair if they take it away from those on £45k who work full time, mortgages and pay out over £1000 per month on nursery fees for 1 child!.

Katy, there is probably an element of that. However in our case, none of the GPs needed to work; very comfortably off. But they loved it (well my parents and my FIL)

They were kind of like, well why years of university and training and struggling a bit when our own kids were younger to give up now to look after yours.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all bitter. I wouldn't want or expect them to and I wanted to be a SAHM for a while. It's just that we shouldn't make the assumption that living close to GPs means a Granny around the corner who is at home all day.

Toccata, yes, we have lost the sense of community we had in the 1950s. But with that came the 'men down the pit and women at home ralying round each other'. Small, poverty stricken communities with closed minds. I'd hate to live like that.

can i ask a question, if when you both work you essentially lose pretty much one income on childcare and related expenses, is it not worth taking a break for a bit, until you children are at least school age?

i am aware that people WANT to work and that is fine, but i do think it is a CHOICE.

my partner works and i am a sahm, we struggle but we get by, financially we would be no better off, infact probably worse off if i worked, so we made the decision as a couple that one of us would stay at home whilst we have young children, i stayed at home as i was happy to do so, bfeeding etc meant that it made the most sense. (financially we both had the same earning power)

i am aware that i will have to take a lower paid job when i return from work and that i will find it hard, but i made the choice to have children and part of that was sacrificing my career for now. (i had kids young so can go back to work in a few years and will be 35) i will probably re train, i have a degree but may do a pgce before going back to work.

if you both want to work then that is fine, but it is a choice (tho not for everyone, some financially have to) so if you have made that choice to work and are struggling then why do it?

like i said i am aware of careers, wanting to work etc, but it still is a choice?

I wasn't brought up in the 1950's.........was born in 1979......and although part of my childhood was spent in poverty stricken communities, not all of it was - and the sense of community existed there as well......including when my mum went back to work when I was around 10yrs old

"shopping in Waitrose and M&S Food and cut back on their Starbucks Cappuchions"

Funny, we do none of those things. Can't even begin to afford it. But then, while we earn over well £45K between us, we have one child in full-nursery and one in wrap-around care, so nearly a third of our income goes on childcare. The other third on a mortgage for a TINY house. So we just about scrape by on what's left.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really feel I'm entitled to chld benefits, and while I would feel the pinch if we lost them, I realise I couldn't really complain because others are worse off and we'd manage somehow.

What I object to is this assumtion that anyone earning £45-50K is living the high life with fancy cars, big houses and overseas holidays. Cos we certainly aren't.

'The VAT increase is worrying me. Will it be on gas/electrcity as well? Those bills are already scary enough, especially the winter heating bills. '

Me, too. We have crap electric storage heaters in here.

And we can't change them because this is a HA flat.

They were putting in gas combi boilers, but they sacked the contractor and, by law, had to put the new contract out for bids for 6 months.

This was last month they did this, so the closing date isn't for a while and then the HA has 3 months to consider after bid closing date.

So it'll be another winter on these things again.

For renters, they're pretty much stuck with what the landlord provides as far as heating is concerned.

4madboys, for some people giving up work would mean little or no chance to return to the career they love at the same level they were on previously. Jobs in The City often or investment law (DH). They move so fast it would be very difficult to get back on.

Ok, so you have stayed at home. What if you earned double your DH. You you and he be happy for him to SAH indefinitely? I'm aware this sounds slightly sexist but in the real world a man's ability to work is often tied into his self-esteem. Not always but often. Would your DH have happily stayed at home until your children went to school or would you have lived on his much lower salary?

There's also the fact that some people just love their jobs and want it as part of their lives. I have a friend whose childcare costs are £600 a week for her 3children. She probably barely pays this from her salary yet she loves her job and wanted to return. She has a set of twins due to start school in Sept so I imagine she'll see a difference then.

thats bloody crap expat about the heaters, if they had started to change them then they should dam well get on and get it sorted ffs. and it just shows another area where the gov/ local councils, HA etc all manage to waste money!

put a pot of coffee on for all those who will feel the pinch in the months to come............which I'd hazard a guess is everyone on this thread what with VAT increases and everything else that's been talked about

yep the vat increase, esp on fuel is going to be a pita for us, esp with dp's job, he has to drive to work and its one of our biggest expenses already.

More secure tenancys are badly needed in this country. If there was decent affordable council houses then far less people would chose to saddle themselves with huge mortgage debt just to offer their family a bit of security.

The meter will tell you how much you've put in over time. DH looked at it the other day, as we've turned the heating off, and the sum was eye-watering. And we only ran the heater in the living room.

At least it's double-glazed. In the last place, it wasn't and the electrics were so dodgy, when teh Scottish HydroElectric man came to read the meter he left because he said health and safety prevented him from doing so.

DH also has to drive to work. He works shifts in a hotel and what little public transport is out here ends at 11PM in summer, 10PM after 31 October.

CBA to read the whole thread but really can't stand this idea that everyone on 45k is a spendthrift and loaded.

Where I live, the ratio between earnings and housing costs (buy or rent) is shocking. A small and ordinary three bed house costs £900-£1000 to rent per month, and £250-£350k to buy.

Childcare is also very expensive. Nurseries charge in excess of £200 a week for a full time place for a baby. Even at four my son's place costs around £27 a day, although obviously he gets some vouchers.

I'm not saying someone on this income is poor where I live, but I don't know any of them who regularly buy take away coffee or go out for meals. Camping in this country is what most people expect for a holiday. Yes, they are well enough off to afford a holiday but not lavish ones.

I have plenty of friends who will find the loss of £138 CB and £40 CTB a real problem. They'll still eat, of course they will, but most of them haven't had pay rises for a while, or have lost extra hours or (small) bonuses at work in the past few years.

Of course they are not the poorest in society. Of course scarce money must be targetted at those most in need but it's tough on anyone when money they've come to rely on is taken away.

4madboys, it's easy to say working is a choice.. personally, I would find walking away from my stable, permanent job a very difficult thing to do given how precarious my husband's position in his industry is. I don't think it would be reasonable to take the chance that we would be left without any income in this climate, even if the net gain from my return to work is really not worth it when childcare is taken into account. Of course, this is a 'choice' but it doesn't feel like one.

yep dp would have been happy to have stayed at home, it was the bfeeding that meant that i stayed at home and the fact that we wanted a largish family so i would have been taking lots of time of for maternity etc.

when i do go back to work, dp will most likely reduce his hours and work part time so that he can help with school pick ups, holiday etc, he is happy to do this. WE chose to have a family together and that at times means making sacrifices together, if that means to one or both our careers then that is how it will be.

and if people love their job and want it as part of their lives, that is fine, but it is still a choice.

its is unfair that if a man or a woman take a large period of time out to care for their child that they are penalised with regards to their position, but i cant see how that can be changed. i am not saying its ok, its not its sucks. if you want to go back to work thats fine, but it is a choice, is all i am saying. (or at least in some circumstances, obviously some have no choice financially)

i only make the comment as on this thread and a few others, i have heard a few people saying that pretty much one whole income goes on childcare, this would have been the case for us, so we made the decision that one would stay at home whilst we have young children as that is what seemed right for OUR family, note OUR family, each family is different and has to do what suits them

yes, mrsbean makes a good point. If one of you is in a less than secure industry it makes sense for you both to hang on to your jobs just in case.

Also, you seem to be saying that 'what's the point if it's all eaten up by childcare costs'. But that's like saying, 'why go to the gym or play tennis if you have to pay for it'

Before I had my 3rd, I worked f/t. I was lucky in that my salary was more than my childcare but even if my childcare had been more than my salary, I might still have worked as I enjoyed it so much. I certainly didn't need to work financially, I did it because I loved my job. So I would have seen it as paying for my hobby if that makes sense.

GoldenRosette is right - we rent a 3 bed house for 1500 a month and thats a normal rent round here - nursery fees are 50 a day so 400 a month pt and then you've got council tax and utilities and all the rest of it - 45k is a lot of money if your mortgage is low but if it isnt or you are renting a family house in the southeast or london then it wont be. Sadly.

And to the poster who asked why you can give up work completely if you arent making any money (as I'm not in real terms as it goes on the nursery and the travel etc). Its because I wont be able to get back into my industry later on - you cant just stop when you like and then pick up the job later - thats cloud cuckoo land -especially in this economic climate.

like is said in some circumstances its a choice, if your dh's job may not be stable then it is not really a choice like you say.

i am luckyish that my dps job is relatively secure, but its not totally secure and for that reason we have taken out an income protection policy which we pay into each month, along with pension, life insurance and critical illness cover etc, these bills stretch us, but they do mean that we should be coverd if dp loses his job, at least for long enough for him to find another job.

and re their not being jobs available, dp was made redundant and whilst there arent always fab jobs available, he signed on at many agencies when unempleyed and there was always some work, he covered for binmen, street cleaners, did horribly mundane factory work that left his hands covered in blisters. these jobs were not ideal and we scrapped by, but it was a job! so even if he lost his job tomorrow the first thing he would do is sign on at agencies and do work like this, not ideal but it can be done.

and expat dp works in a childrens home down a country lane, shift work so late finishes, early starts and again no public transport.

he does sometimes bike, ie in the summer, but it takes almost an hour and in the winter and at night when its dark the roads really are NOT safe to bike, there have been a couple of cyclists killed on one stretch of road already this year or course financially if he died i would be better off, phaps i should encourage him to ride more