In not having much sympathy with a couple on £45k plus per year having some benefits cut?

[ssd]

There is loads of this on the news just now about how "middle income" families will be having some child tax credits cut and might be paying more tax. They news are showing what to me looks like comfortable off families having to do with a bit less. Is this really so bad? I know an income of £45-£50k per year might not be much in central London but will keep you in style in parts of the north, but how bad will it be? So people might have to change jobs/give up the second car/holiday at home instead of Spain every year? SO WHAT? There are plenty of us living on less than £25k a year who have had to cut back since having kids and take this as a fact of life.

I know MN is made up of mostly middle earners and I'll get pelters for this, but I don't really care. Anyone I know on a middle income can afford to give up some things _ its called life.

Well Katycarr, if you cannot afford a 3bed anywhere in London then you really should go live somewhere else.

Very few people actually need to be in London. Many could relocate to other parts of the country. And the, 'Oh but I was born here all my family and friends are here so I deserve to live here' claim doesn't wash with me. We have moved all over the country and abroad with work. We have actively sought out better positions in different areas and moved for the new job. Some people seem terrified of this.

Just looked at Croydon and Peckham on Rightmove and you can get 3beds for 150k.

Jooly

I'm one of the people arguing that £65K not excessive for an MP and I am also arguing that people on more than £20K should not just shut up and be grateful while their standard of living is eroded.

katy

people have no right to the equity in their houses, but obviously very large falls in price are going to really hurt people who bought in at the top of the market. I'm hoping for gentle and gradual falls in price, followed by house prices generally following general inflation.

jaysus, really need to stop posting one handed with this fat baby squealing in my ear

Hang on brogan you really have the wrong person.

I don't live in London because I cannot afford to live there and have absolutely no problem accepting that. I also cannot afford to buy a home where I live, I accept that and so I rent a home. Again I have no problem with that. You take your choices in life and on a middle income those choices exist.

I was making the point that home ownership in the place that you want is a luxury and therefore not one that the state should be supporting. I can afford to buy a house up north on my salary, as you say I can afford to live in Peckham or Croydon. I don't want to live in either of these places.

I do still think that property prices have got out of hand, we earn a very good salary and it seems odd that we cannot afford to buy. What does everyone else do? But as I said we are just getting on with our lives in our little rented house.

The state contributes to it of you are claiming child benefit and tax credits. There are people saying they cannot cover their basic bills without child benefit or TC.

Not everyone takes their child benefit, I think a growing number of people are asking themselves in the present situation do we need to be taking money out of the system.

Okay - I will accept paying MPs 65K, Have purpose built flats that they can stay in when they are in London, so we won't be paying their mortgages and only allow them to claim for train travel/petrol/reasonable lunch expenses and provide receipts like everyone else does. No more taxis and furnishing their houses at our expense. The tube is good enough for the rest of London. I will have more respect for those choosing to be an MP and will feel that they are in it for more altruistic reasons. This might have the knock on effect of demonstrating why we need tax credits and child benefit

Saslou - I live in a 2 bed flat with my child and another on the way. I wouldnt move for all the money in the world. I grew up in a family of 5 in a flat, all my friends live in flats and my neighbours etc. My next door neighbours have lived in the flat connected to mine for 45 years and brought their kids up there and they can afford to move and dont want to as they recently got a big inheritance.

By being in a close space together I think you become a closer family and thats why I want the same for my own kids. There seems to be less divorces and unhappiness as you are all so close together you dont live seperate lives.

I dont live in London though, I live in Devon but everyone is on the minimum wage here. I know someone who makes £19000 and everyone thinks they are rich! My best friend is a nursery manager and she only makes £13k a year for a 50 hour week. Its just the way it is here so no families can afford a house. She lives with her husband and 2 kids in a 1 bed flat and her mortgage is £500 a month. Both me and her feel lucky that we have our own places regardless of how small they are as they belong to us and the security that comes with that. I do think some people are just greedy though.

However I do think houseprices have an impact on the quality of teachers ( to give one example) that you get in London.

I taught in London and left when I needed to live in a family home not a shared flat.

I have lived in Croydon before and Peckham and never had the need for body armour.

Katy, I didn't mean you personally, more in a general sense.

Oh and Southerners do like to imagine it's cheap up North. We moved up here from a very expensive part of Surrey and got less for our money. Yes, there are cheaper areas but likewise with London/south East as I pointed out.

When we moved up here 4yrs ago, DH showed a picture to his admin assistant. She said, 'Blimey, lucky you're moving up North, you'd pay half million for that around my way' (She lived in Dagenham) DH didn't have the heart to tell her how much more than that the house actually cost.

N/S divide rant over!

I have moved from the north to the south, our house up north was half the value of a similar house down here.

But I knew that when I moved so I am not going to start bleating about it.

Sunshine - it's great that you are happy in your home and to a point I do agree that some people have constantly upgraded to massive houses that they don't need. But this is not true of everyone and I don't think we should be forced to live in crowded homes because we can't afford to do otherwise. It's time that more council houses were built or shared ownership schemes introduced. I do think it is wrong that people can't afford to live where they grew up. Staying close to family can be a big help with childcare, enabling people (women most of the time) to work and contribute in turn.

Sorry minthumbug I am being crabby, I will work off my aggression in the garden.

Well Katy, I guess it depends where to move to/from. We moved from a village near Guildford to Wilmslow. Of course had I moved to Bolton or Burnley, it may have been a different matter but DH needs to be in Manchester City centre but also very close to an international airport as he's in the States a lot. Wilmslow offers him both. There is often a reason areas are the price they are.

I just don't get the antipathy towards people saying that a salary of 45k doesn't go far from others on lower salaries who are presumably being topped up by tax credits (and I don't imagine, before I get flamed that they are being topped up by 20k gross). I think I am misunderstanding the attitudes as it seems to be that if you are earning 25k between you you wd still take home more than that with tax credits. So why all the ridiculous you shd live in a shed if you can't survive on 45k stuff? Why can't we just have less personal attacks and more rational debate about what a fair and decent minimum standard of living should be?

Brogan - like MintHumbug said some people will have to stay in London because of their jobs and have no choice. Mine for example is quite specialized and I have not seen positions advertised anywhere else in the country.

As for moving to Peckham...have you ever been? There is a reason house prices are lower there and I for one won't be moving my family there anytime soon.

'If it is a matter of one staying at home, not paying childcare costs and not having to claim benefits does it matter who stays at home. My DH would much rather stay at home to look after if DH (if i was the higher earner) than have to claim all sorts of benefits that we shouldn't really be entitled to.'

Florence you clearly have no idea that people can be on the SAME salary. DH and I earn more or less the same (less than £25K each). If I gave up work we'd be on less than £25K, if DH gave up work we'd be on less than £25K, if we both work we're on less than £25K cos of childcare costs and travel. We have chosen the latter option as at least that gives us some likelihood of a fairly decent income in a few years.

You are very lucky to have a DH who earns so much. And fwiw neither DH or I have credit cards, or car loans, or student loans, or a high mortgage. We only buy what we can afford, which is why I object to having to suffer because others have mortgaged
themselves to the hilt, run up high debt, and all helped to add to the financial crisis.

grumpypants Me and my husband are on the minimum wage with a joint take home of £1530 for doing 75 hours between us and we get £20 a month tax credits and CB and nothing else. The rest goes on childcare so you are no better off if you are both working and dont have any extra money towards bills.

I dont see the problem in living in flats it is hardly a hardship. Most people either do that here or share a house with extended family. Its what they do in foreign countries so why not here? Whats the big deal about everyone wanting houses anyway. Flats are always going to be cheaper as you can fit more in, and its only a relatively new thing that children are expected to have a bedroom each.

We are in that bracket and have been discussing me giving up work to bring our income down and not have anything cut as it wouldn't be worth me working.

We have a mortgage of over a grand a month in an area of low wages and high housing (South West).It is not a swanky house at all,very basic.

We don't have foreign holidays (we camp),have one car and keep petrol to £25 a week. Dp and I never have new clothes and we never go out. We shop in Lidls. We're going to be well and truely screwed as we're not married. Not entirely sure what we are supposed to give up-the house I guess.

I know soooo many families panicking at the moment. It's so unfair, that money is a lifeline to many. The rich will always be fine and the high taxes which the middle classes pay support the poor which I don't begrudge. However as usual it'll be the middle classes that suffer and that will be expected to get everybody else out of the shite.

ultimately though, nobody really wants to have to part with their money. Doesn't matter if you earn £10k a year or £200k, if someone comes along and says "we need more money from you, give us some more," nobody realistically says "oh that's ok, here, have some more of my money, happy to oblige, I didn't need it anyway."

If you're living to your means then a cutback on the money that is coming in means that you potentially have to give something up or cut back on something, the difference is that if you're on 10k then it might be something essential, whereas if you're on 200k it might be something that would be classed as a luxury. However, just because it might be a luxury you're giving up, doesn't mean you're not entitled to feel annoyed about having to do so. I thin that one should feel lucky that there are things you can cut back, but you can still feel annoyed/sad at having to do so.

My dh earns a good salary. Enough that we cann afford for me to be a sahm and enough that we don't qualify for any tax credits. If he lost his job tomorrow there are things we could cut back. Sky/broadband/jym membership etc, and I would do so without hesitation. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be sad that I had to do so and wouldn't miss some of the things I have become used to as part of my daily life.

I am eternally grateful that there are things we could cut back on should the need arise. I do not envy anyone who is living on the breadline and who then finds themselves financially worse off. But I don't think that I should be begrudged the things we can afford just because there are people who can't.

Suggestions of downsizing are very naive.

A lot of people bought houses when the market was at its peak. Some people took out big mortgages on those houses (am talking 90/95% here not the 125% mortgages as tbh I have slightly less sympathy with those), But now houses have A dropped and B become harder to sell. Downsizing is about so much more than just saying "oh, we'll downsize," and then moving house. The afterage time taken to move house is now sixteen weeks, and before you get to that point you have to sell it, look for a new one, and there are no guarantees. Plus if your house has reduced in value there's a good chance you might be in negative equity meaning that the money you owe won't be paid off in full when you sell the house anyway.