to expect dd to be believed...

[MeMudmagnet]

...and to expect some action.

I've posted before about the bullying problems dd (11)has been experiencing.
This girl, is a very manipulative, calculating liar. She has been accusing dd of all manner of things and even self harming to back up her claims, something she's done since playgroup age.

My dd has been a hardworking, happy pupil, with no friendship issues at all. Opinions from other parents, seem to be that this child is to be avoided.

I recently wrote to the head about the problem, with photos of dd's injuries and a list of all incidents. He spoke to both girls separately and the girl then went on to accuse me of intimidation, by threatening her, pointing at her and glaring at her.

The girl has turned every incident around on my dd and if she's accused of anything she just denies it.

The school say, there is no evidence to back up our claims of self harming and they can't act on anything without evidence.
The bullying has now changed to more subtle small things, like stealing, hiding things (her school shoes, during PE) smirking and laughing at dd when she speaks etc. Of course she is clever enough never to get caught and these thing sound too petty to report on their own.

I know she has done almost the same thing to another girl previously and the problem went on for four years, before she turned her attentions to dd.

When I asked, after an incident in class, for them to be separated onto a different table, the teacher moved dd and one other girl, leaving the bully and all my dds other friends in the same place!
It seems this girl has got away with it again!
Is she as untouchable as she now thinks she is?

YANBU but I think you need to seriously consider moving your DD to another school.

She will be going to secondary in Sept, so only has one more term at this school.
She has other friends she is happy with and I know she wouldn't want to move schools.

She's spoiling dds last term at primary, which so far she had been very in.

I also think her behaviour is quite disturbed, I know she has a difficult background.

YANBU of course you want your DD to be believed and it sounds like this other girl is a nightmare! I'm guessing your DD is in primary still so changing schools is not really an option. If your DD has good friends she can rely on I reckon she can see herself through this last term and just ignore the smirking and laughing. Actually, I do think ignoring this bullying girl is the only defense your DD has, but her friends need to back her up in this. WRT the stealing and hiding, can your DD ask her teacher to look after her stuff because it has gone missing before?

I can only think that your DD's bully must be having a horrible home life to need to treat other people in this way. It might be a consolation to your DD to explain that people (children especially) are often horrible to others because their life is so bad.

parental perspective isn't it

wonder what the other mother's perspective is

Oh I so feel for your DD, this sounds exactly like what happened to me. It was hell, and the other girl was so similar to the one you are describing - she smiled sweetly and turned everything around on me.

Is this other girl going to your DDs secondary school?

Yes, the same secondary. But I've requested different classes and school bus allocations.
I don't want her last term at this school to be a miserable one.

If its only one term, then take her out and kick up a stink at school.
Prolonged exposure to bullying has so many terrible effects on kids.

I ttok my daughter out of secondary school before I had a new place. The school will want to get action to resolve as they will have this 'absence ' on thier records, that affect their league tables and OFSED reports.
Involve you're local authority and explain that you are not satified with the way your complaint is being handled.

It took a while to sort, but it was the best thing we did - I nipped it in the bud early and moved her - we had to wait and she had ttutors at home for a bit ( we had private but the education auth can provide them ).

I saw my child wearing her unhappiness like a great big coat - it was dragging her down and I refused to let it happen to her.

I can only recommed, from personal experience, that you deal with this quicky and more effectively - its a dreadful thing to watch your child sufer in such a way.

Bugger classes and buses - different school. If this has been going on for a while, and things are continuing to happen, please don't let her be exposed to it for another five years (or more, depending on how they alter the school system).

It sounds as if it is not a matter of your dd being believed but needing evidence. I know from experience that bullies are very sly and good at covering their tracks. It is often very hard to pin down exactly what is happening.
The school probably believes your dd but can't accuse the bully without evidence. I would continue to make a fuss. If you report every instance of bullying to the school they will probably make more of an effort to find the evidence needed. Making yourself a nusience to the school might make them more responsive.

It isn't an option to go for a different secondary. The school she's going to is a good one and most of the kids will be going there, she's looking forward to it. It is however a large school and I know they will be separated, the primary are backing me on this.
The trouble is, since I've raised it with the head, the bully has gone ultra careful.
If dd tells the teacher each time the girl smirks at her, what could they do? She has no evidence her things are being taken/hidden by this girl, but it seems a bit of a coincidence!
She is indeed very sly.

how do you know she self harms if there is no evidence? if what you say is true, this is a very disturbed young girl & the school SHOULD be noting the potential of self harm to protect the other girl from herself, and dealing with that (which would, hopefully, prevent further bullying).

Thank you for that - troublewithtalk.

With the letter I wrote to the head, I included a detailed list of incidents.
The girl has denied everything. So they say they need an incident backed with evidence to act.
All the incidents I've listed can't be backed with reliable evidence. Only other children as witnesses.

I can't imagine this girl is going to be stupid enough to get caught. The head said, when he spoke to the girls, they both seemed ready to move forward. DD just wants to get on with life. But the other girl won't let it go.

I feel a bit about posting this and it will take me time so will probably be defunct by the time I post it BUT...

I was bullied throughout infant school by a girl, she would mainly pull me over in the playground and hurt me. I never told anyone, I was the youngest of four and "not telling" was the code. I was classed as clumsy for all the scraped knees I had.

This same girl then took against me in (what is now) Y6, after I appeared in the school play and started giving me a really hard time and did eventually hit me really hard in my face, when a teacher saw the red handprint on my face, she wanted to know who had hit me and I concocted a great story that I had run into someones hand! (Never tell!)

This girl went to my secondary school and TBH I really didn't see much of her, when I did see her again it was in 4th form when we had music, she was delighted to be in the same group as me and really quite clingy in a way. She felt we had a connection I think but hadn't remembered that it had been a really negative and violent one. I felt sorry for her TBH.

Don't change schools for your DD, give her the confidence to deal with her bully in the best way she can, make sure she doesn't feel inferior or insecure, but do let her go to the secondary school her other friends are at. Sod the bully, cos once they are all there, it really is a bigger place than this little bully will be able handle.

kickassangel - She has a history of self harming since playgroup age, when she would bite herself and accuse other kids. The other girl who was bullied by her also claimed she pinched herself hard to make bruises to back up her "I'm the victim" claims.
With my DD, after kicking her and bruising her badly, (I photographed the bruises) she hit her knees against objects in the playground so she could blame DD.

Her mother is in cloud cuckoo land. She is lying herself to back her dd. When she told another Mum I had gestured at the bully in a threatening way. The other questioned her, "Did you see it?" she said she did SHE DEFINATELY DIDN'T!

I think she is disturbed. I know her mother left her, violent, abbusive, controlling father, when she was playgroup age.

The Mum of the other bullied child has gently suggested she should get her dd some help. I've suggested this to the school. The Mum won't listen. She thinks my DD is the problem.

But what should I expect the school to do about this in this situation?

Personally I'd like the girl confronted, for the school to say, we know you're lying and for her mother to be told a few home truths!

I know that is unreasonable, but surely there must be some middle ground, between this and waiting for evidence?

larks35 - Thank you for your post. I don't know why you felt posting it??

I'm doing the best I can to keep dds confidence up. But I know how easy it is to get worn down by feeling constantly got at.
I'm encouraging her to bring lots of other friends home to strengthen other relationships.
I told her it will get sorted and the girl won't get away with for ever (we had a good chat about karma)
It's very unsettling for her at school to not know when or what she may be accused of next and I want the school to help.

i also think that just talking to the girls isn't enough, unless it is followed up.

what is lunchtime supervision like? i'm assuming that's when she pinches herself etc., would any staff be close enough to arrive on the scene in time if one of dd's friends went to get them?

it is vv hard for the school - they may believe every word your dd says, but there is a limit to how much action they can take based just on a child's word. they may be aware of a huge range of background info which you just don't know about, but they are not able to share with you. as a teacher there were times when all i could do was nod & smile, but knew that the family being discussed were in therapy/child about to be suspended etc etc.

it is scary how much a teacher can miss when the class are right in front of them, but i would expect the teacher to notice occasional times when the other girl is making comments etc, specially if it's loud enough to be heard by your dd at another table. do you know if she has heard anything?

it sounds like you are doing a lot to help your dd, and it's a horrible situation for her.

it also sounds like the other girl, and her mum, have much bigger issues, which does not excuse her behaviour. Is your dd mature enough to understand that sometimes people act like this because they are scared and upset inside, so pick on someone that they envy? It sounds like your dd has some good friends, perhaps the other girl is wishing she could be like your dd? In the mind of a confused 10yr old, that could mean that she needs to 'get rid' of dd in order to take her place?

i am not trying to excuse the other girl, but this seems to be a v complex situation, much more than just picking on someone else. not nice for either girl to be feeling the way they do.

btw, we had similar with dd and her 'best friend' who was quite nasty to her at times, from age 4, but then we moved when dd was 5. since then her friend's family life has entirely fallen apart & it's obvious that the poor girl was just living in a nasty situation which she couldn't control, so picked on the nearest person - my dd. i don't like the girl any better for knowing it, but i do feel some compassion for her.

btw, when i asked 'how did you know' it was meant to be a challenge, just wondering if you had ever witnessed it, if school had known, been involved etc.

I know my instinct would be to pull your child out of school because it's unbearable watching them suffer and be destroyed.

But I think Larks is right. Don't give in. Try and teach your daughter that no one can make you feel bad without your permission. If she has good friends, ask them to stick around at playtime etc and witness what this other girl is doing. maybe she could chat to the girl who was bullied previously.

The truth is, there are bullies everywhere. Some are just trying out their muscle, some are insecure, some have really bad problems. Taking her away gives a very strong message that you don't think she can cope with this. It turns her into a victim even more than the bully. because suppose it happens again at the next school, with this or another girl. Supposed word gets round that she stayed off school for being picked on. Instant target.

Help her learn now to hold her head up, ignore the girl or give as good as she gets. If you teach her to believe in herself no one else can put her down and she won't get bullied later in life.

I think she's clever enough not to get caught doing anything.
Her lies have been believed for so long that she seems to have a lot of outer confidence. The fact that she's made allegations against me as an adult and the way she'll look me straight in the eye in an almost challenging way, makes me feel, she knows she's good at what she does.

I do wish her mother would see sense. She must know there is a strong possibility she's been affected by her past. I know admitting that would mean she would be admitting she was wrong about all this. But her dds future happiness is at stake here!

I know bullies are everywhere, I was bullied myself and it was never sorted out. I know how it affects your confidence and outlook on life. ATM my dd is stronger than I was as a child and I desperately don't want that to change.
I've done everything by the book in dealing with this and it makes me cross to think this girl can simply deny everything, then make up more lies.
She posted a petty nasty comment about dd on the school forum and I was just watching and praying that she's slip up and drop herself in it. But no...