AIBU to think the whole "extend the right to request flexible working to all employees" is well presented tripe????

[CagedBird]

surely we already have the right to ask our employers for flexible hours what isn't going to change is that employers can just say no.

Am I missing something? Why is this in the three main parties manifesto's.

I agree. load of tripe

AFAIK only parents have the right to request flexible working?

Certainly in the public sector there are many people who are not parents who are working flexibly. And in the private sector, many parents with the right to request flexible working have that request denied. So I agree, YANBU

People might be looking after elderly parents or a neigbour or grown up disabled child or have hobbies or voluntary work things they want to do. It's fairer if it extends beyond childcare responsibilities and will benefit women because it won't just be seen as a woman's problem thing.

Entirely agree Xenia.

Agree its tripe. Employees ask. Its denied. The business reasons that they have to give are so weak its incredible. All a load of tosh.

Everyone does have the right to request flexible working, however employers had to be able to prove it would cause them hardship before being able to deny requests from women with children under 5 (if I remember correctly). I suppose they intend to extend that aspect of it to all, which would be rather nice, I think.

Where I worked we never denied a request as it was an investment bank. There was absolutely no way a woman working from home a day or two a week could cause us hardship, and we realised this! The only thing we could do was negotiate between the manager and the person requesting it so they were both happy and getting what they needed.

Actually, I'm full of crap (it's been a while since I left work!) for anyone interested in the ins and outs: www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Flexibleworking/DG_10029491

It's not very well expressed. What otheres have said is right. It would be a right to ask and to have your request turned down only if there is a good business reason.

Yes, some people see the current reasons as weak, but at the moment, if, say, a grandparent asks to go part time to care for their grandchild, the answer can just be 'no, we don't do that'. They don't even have to have a proper think.

Surely it's a step in the right direction. Also, stops all those "ooh, I hate mums, they have all these special rights" stuff. The answer could be "well, if you want to spend more time on the golf course, you blooming well ask too". I think, the more people can ask, the more people will work flexibly and the more it will be normal to do so. That's good for everyone's quality of life and I totally agree with Xenia that it's good for women.

As far as I am concerned it is tripe, I work in the public sector as a teacher and it is made very clear that if you want a flexible working agreement you need to work somewhere else.

My DH managed to successfully sue his former employer for not giving adequate reasons for granting (well, continuing his trial of) flexible working, with the help of his union.

twinset - but the thing is, that behaviour is illegal. You could potentially sue. The grandma in my example has no rights at all. I know it's hard, you need the job, etc, etc. All sorts of practical things get in the way of legal rights. But surely it's a step in the right direction to at least have the right to consider. Bumper's example is a good one. Lots of people do actually force these things through against reluctant managment because of the rules.

Is it illegal, I don't know. We can go make our requests, we are then told that the children come first.

Recently someone has won the right to return to work part time but it was a drawn out legal process.

I have just accepted that if we are lucky enough to have a child I will be back at work very quick.

Schools are not exempt from flexible working regulations either. Although many head teachers find this hard to believe schools aren't exempt from employment law.

I had my flexible working request refused flat without any consideration. I made a grievence and I won. I was able to point out similar arrangments to what I was proposing in other schools.

Flexible patterns of working. (Not necessarily flexi time) benefit the employer. All it requires is a bit of imagination.

I think it depends on the type of flexible working request. Obviously it may be hard for small companies to fill in the gaps of people working funny hours, but what I think people forget is that by flexible working employees aren't asking to do less work for the same pay. My colleagues often seem to forget that I work part time but I only get paid for part time hours!

In my husband's case they offered him a trial period (tick in a box) and then despite all evidence to the contrary said that the trial hadn't worked and he couldn't continue. Fortunately he had been savvy enough to get a letter to the effect that it had all worked signed by his immediate manager. They settled in the end, but only because he was advised that if it went to court and he won he still my not get compensation, having refused earlier offers from the company, and we had to chose money over the principle of seeing them win. Even DH's union lawyer said that he wished he could give DH the compo money and take them to court anyway!

We have the right to make the requests, they have the right to refuse, they tend to do this.

We have a little flux of pregnancies at the moment, I am watching with interest.

There is a proper procedure for requesting flexible working. I don't know offhand, but I believe the statistics show that a good percentage of requests HAVE been agreed. Also, the reasons that an employer can use to turn down requests are entirely reasonable eg cost to the business, negative impact on other colleagues.

I think this is absolutely a step in the right direction. Everybody should have the right to try to adjust their work/life balance it they choose; it's not something that just applies to parents with children of a particular age.

Equally, the employer needs people willing to do the jobs that need doing, and if there are sound reasons for turning down a request - then you either have to go with that or look elsewhere for employment.

Do. "Children come first" is a naff, naff argument.

Secondary school there is no argument at all. Different teachers, different classes. Only stumbling block probably management responsibilities, but that's no more of a problem in a school than elsewhere.

Primary school a bit harder, but many schools I know have job shares. You might need to negotiate harder, but many schools have proved it do-able, without detriment to children. What about all the non-contact time a deputy is entitled to. Isn't that a similar continuity issue?

Er, but that's specific business reasons Herbie. That's a reason why some jobs can't be flexibe. It's not a reason to not offer the right to all those office workers, shop staff, teachers, healthcare professionals, etc, etc, out there.

twinset - we have had a flux of pregnancies in recent years where I teach. A lot of requests for flexible working have been agreed. Where they haven't, it's because of really sound reasons: eg a lot of the women wanted to return on 4 days per week, which made it virtually impossible to recruit someone else for the 'spare' day - I mean, who wants to commit to a one day per week job? The deal with a couple of them was that they had to reduce to 3 days, to get a reasonable chance of finding a job share for 2 days. Some of the women didn't want to accept that, so ended up leaving. That was their choice, not the employers. Bottom line is - flexible working is exactly that - being flexible, not trying to rewrite the job on your own terms. We have also had a lot of issues with split classes, and full time colleagues picking up shitty bits of timetabling to accommodate part timers - so in all honesty it cuts both ways.

I work very closely with the member of SLT who does timetabling, and I know his Easter holiday will have been a nightmare, trying to write a timetable which is fair to the teachers who work 5 days a week as well as the part timers.

The request has to be reasonable and the appliant has to show that it could work and potential difficulties could be over come.

For example it would be ridicoulous for a teacher to request to work from home. However many teachers do sucessfully jobshare.

For example one teacher might work Monday, Tuesday, Wed and the other teacher work Wednesday, Thursday Friday. Continuity would be ensured by both teachers having their PPA on Wednesday. (Or both coming in on a different day)

Benefits to the school would be having two individual with different strengths. It can be hard for a primary school teacher to teach all the curriculum well. In secondary its often possible to split up a sysabuss and have different teachers teach different units.

Many older teachers find that they do not have the stamina for full time teaching. Yet these people are very experienced and talented. Part time or flexible working is way of keeping these people in the work force. I am sure it will get more common when retirement age increases.

You may be right violethill and it may be that people have gone in making specific demands rather than a genuine flexible working request.

I know a number of women have been turned down and women have left the school knowing they want to try for a baby or after the baby has arrived.

I can see the Head's point of view to be honest, the school is here to give our kids the best education it can and that has to come first.

My problem is having so many exam classes and a house management position my absence will cause disruption.

Tbh part of me is dreading getting pregnant and having to have the talk, which probably is not helping me conceive in the first place.

But the fact that you have thought long and hard about the impact your Mat Leave will have shows that you care very much, and aren't at all unreasonable twinset!

And it is absolutely your right to conceive and take Mat Leave so don't feel any guilt!

Thats very different from the scenarios I was describing which I've come across as SLT. There is a huge difference between genuine requests to work flexibly, which take into account the issues it will have for the school, and women coming in and basically saying 'I want to work 4 days a week, not 3 not 5 but exactly 4', or 'I want to have Wednesday off because I never want to work more than two consecutive days'. Believe me as SLT I've seen it all! We even had one woman who had a request for 4 days agreed, and she then started complaining because she wanted it to be either a Monday or a Friday so she could tack it onto weekends and go away if she wanted!! That type of unreasonable demand doesn't do any favours for the people who are making thoughtful requests and don't intend to take the piss.