to think some parents are completely lacking in brains when it comes to dogs?

[AnnieLobeseder]

I was leaving DD1's after-school club today, with my two dogs (on short leashes as children around) and the DDs, when we passed a man with a toddler in his arms. The little boy was leaning over to reach my dogs, going "doggy doggy" as toddlers do. And what does his idiot dad do? Without a single word to me brings the boy down to dog height and sticks his kid's face right in my large dog's face so the boy could pat them. WTF!?!?!?

I said to him that perhaps it was an idea to ask people if it was OK before letting his child touch strange dogs. He said "it's OK, he likes dogs". So I asked what if my dogs didn't like kids. He just shrugged and pointed to my two girls, which I guess means he assumed that since I have children, my dogs are lacking any inclination to react when strange children's faces are suddenly thrust in theirs.

As it happens, large dog recently had a bit of a problem with biting, though it was only on our property and training seems to have sorted her out.

But good holy lord of all things holy, what an idiot! I just hope that poor boy never does get bitten if he isn't taught to respect strange dogs. I teach my two never to touch a dog without asking the owner first.

only

bloody idiots yanbu

Shona and Valhalla - after DD2 was born, large dog got a little unsettled and overprotective, and ended up biting a delivery man and me, though she was aiming for the post man. She's quite a nervous dog to start with. After lots of attention and training, she hasn't shown any further tendency towards agression and is back to her old self. Though I still never let her loose any more when there's a stranger on the property until I'm very sure she's made friends with them. Off our property, she isn't agressive in the slightest so doesn't need muzzling. She does wear a Halti, which can be confused with a muzzle, and does pull her mouth closed and down when I pull on the lead, should the need arise. She is also NEVER off the lead because her recall is totally unreliable and no amount of training seems to be able to cure her.

sausage - seriously, who doesn't know that dogs bite.

Unless a dog is really likely to bite people anytime anywhere (and it doesn't sound like Annie's dog is one of those), then I don't think a muzzle is very fair sausagepastie. They are horrible for dogs to wear.

And I think the man was stupid. You don't need to know much about dogs to realise that it's a bit silly to dangle a child in their face when you don't know the dog. Actually I wouldn't do it if I did know the dog. I wouldn't even dangle a child in a cat's face for that matter! Animals are animals, however well trained/domesticated they are, they can react when startled or feel threatened. It really doesn't take a lot of brainpower to realise that does it?

YANBU, this bloke is. He should really inform himself about dogs even if he doesn't own one- After all, dogs exist in the world in which he is bringing up his son, and he needs to teach him how to deal with them appropriately. Just because a dog is good with its own children does not mean it will be good with strange ones. That is the nature of (some) dogs.

That really annoys me when I am walking my Dads dog. He is very large and does not tolerate children well.

Obviously I never walk near schools or anything and when I see groups of children I cross the road away from them, but still they follow and try and touch him.

My own dog is fine with children. loves them infact. He is approached more often than my Dads as he is small and fluffy. It unnerved me when I first got him because I had no idea how he would react to strangers.

I think it's odd when people allow their children to get close to a dog who is ona leash without checking it is safe with children first.

right back at you! there's no need for that.

Why didn't you say something when the child was saying 'doggy doggy'? Perhaps when you didn't say 'actually my dog might bite' he assumed it would be safe. And it was...so, no problem, really.

You have no idea what he usually does - perhaps he waits for the owner to either give the nod or warn him, if his child is near the dog and showing an interest.

presumably you would have warned him, had there been a risk?

To be honest, I didn't think for one second he'd be stupid enough to stick his child in my dogs's face, and he did it so fast I didn't have time to react. And I didn't think she would have bitten the child, it was more the stupid risk the man was taking that concerned me. I knew there wasn't really a risk, he didn't.

hmm...ok I concede. It was a bit daft.

but hopefully he won't do it next time, now you have told him.

Some people don't understand dogs, though. Like they don't understand horses, despite the road safety ads...there should be dog ads too, but I guess the govt expects owners to do all the work of keeping their dogs away from uneducated people.

YANBU. I've always stressed to my DD that she should check with dog's owner before stroking a dog.

She went through a phase of wanting to stroke any dog she saw. Because I didn't want her to be as nervous of dogs as I am, I would always ask an owner if it was OK whenever she showed an interest and she got to pet lots of different dogs.

Unfortunately on one occassion she went racing up to a tiny dog in someone's arms before I could stop her, went to stroke it and the dog snapped at her. Luckily she wasn't bitten but she is now scared of dogs. I'm still cross with myself for not stopping her in time.

Even before this happened though, I would never have dreamed of telling her that it was OK to stroke a dog without asking first.

My theory about dogs and children is this:

1. If your dog is off the lead and comes over to me/my DC - it is entirely your responsibility if it bites/knocks over my kid, regardless of how my child reacts.

1. If your dog is on the lead and my DC come running over to your dog, it is entirely my responsibility if your dog freaks out in any way.

I think if both dog owners and parents subscribed to those principles, the world would be a happier place

Your theory os a good one LadyBiscuit.

I agree also ladyB

I dont think there's any need to be educated that some dogs bite - surely everyone knows that.

My dc's have been taught from an early age that they must always ask before petting a dog and never approach a dog that doesnt have an owner beside them (tied up outside shops etc).

I think it would help both owners and non-owners if everyone was educated on dog behaviour, i.e. how to recognise if a dog is being friendly rather than aggressive, what to do if a dog not on a leash approaches you, etc.

It would save so many misunderstandings and would help both nervous humans and dogs interact with each other safely.

My lab is huge and still young but very friendly and extremely tolerant with children. However, I do have to explain that if a child wants to pat him he may get excited (although has been trained not to jump up) wagging his tail and try to lick them, so if the child is nervous the parent can decide themselves whether it is appropriate.

I have had the response though that after a parent saying "thats okay, my dc will be fine with that", when the dog does start trying to lick or nuzzle that the parent's reactions are that the dog is trying to hurt and become hysterical which really doesnt help.

I totally agree LadyBiscuit. When my DD got snapped at by that dog, it wouldn't have occurred to me to blame the owner. It was my fault for not reacting quickly enough when my DD raced over.

However, on another occassion, the owner of a big, scary dog let it race straight at DD. DH and I intervened only for the owner to moan at us about how people were prejudiced against his dog. He goes round the corner and we hear his dog getting into a fight with another dog. If anything had happened to DD on that occasion, blame would have been squarely on the owner.

Also you must ask EVERY time. Told off one of DD's friends who rushed over to stroke a dog at the school gates earlier this week. You must ask every time - what if the dog had a sore ear or was feeling poorly.

Good points ladybiscuit.

SB, that's true, most people do realise some dogs bite - however it is not always a given that a dog who is controlled, standing near small children without seeming to attack them and near a school, is likely to bite.

That would be an easy wrong assumption to make for many of us I feel.

ladybiscuit speaks sense - well said

COmpletely agree OP. When our Westie was a puppy he was completely adorable (still is of course!), very little and white and fluffy. BUT, he was being socialised and pups have very sharp baby teeth. I distinctly remember a couple of occassions I would be standing outside a shop with him on a lead sat by my feet and a parent bringing their toddler over and saying things along the line of "there you go X, give the pretty puppy a stroke, say hello etc". Apart from the fact I found this very rude (no acknowledgement to the human on the other end of the lead!) I also thought it was very risky. They should have asked if it was alright, if he was ok with children, was he injected etc etc. I am sure that had he decided to nip a little finger (play biting)it would have been mine/his fault.

In these circumstances I would normally say something like "you're in luck, he is actually very good with children. You never can tell though, I'd recommend asking the owner if it is ok next time to be on the safe side. Partly to actually impart that information as you can't trust strange dogs, but partly to try to politely get across that the behaviours was quite rude!

Very odd.

Hmmm He was definitely being very foolish , but I could also ask why you are taking large unmuzzled dogs with a biting problem to an after school club ?

sigh, OP, i feel your pain.
parents fall into three camps.

1. Sensible about teaching their kids that dogs can be great if you treat them right [glad to see there's some mumsnetters like this!]

1. Letting their kids run over and try to pet random dogs. [my dog HATES people he doesnt know, i wouldnt come over and start petting your kid, learn some sense!]

1. Being totally hysterical about dogs and seeing every dog as a wild wolf who will EAT their precious kids first chance they get.

also people who think that a dog nipping a child should be put down as they are clearly unsafe.
a dog nips you as a WARNING.
if he wants to hurt you he will BITE you.
my DC's have been nipped, they are not traumatised because my reaction was 'bad dog, naughty kids for not acknowledging he was getting peed off'
god, i'll start that thread one day...

and LadyBiscuit
i applaud you. that is the unspoken rule, some people dont think rationally.
[points at LadyBiscuit and shouts so everyone can hear]
sane person here! sane, rational human being!

But that is just common sense, no? I would like to think we don't need government guidelines

Now if we could only deal with the dog shit on the pavement issue ...

Brassband, I believe I've covered that point. Twice, in fact. My dog does not bite children.

Everyone else - quite right, the whole three camps of people. When I make my DDs ask before approaching strange dogs, the owners often look at me like I'm mad, and tell me "of course Fluffy is OK with children, why make them ask?"

Are there really so many people out there, dog owners and non-dog owners, who completely lack common sense when it comes to dog safety?