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Original poster

To Think 10 Year Olds Are Children?

76 replies

SpookOnAStick · 13/03/2010 21:48

I don't often post on Mumsnet and when I do it is when I'm pissed rubbish, but this is annoying me beyond all reason.

There has been much talk today of raising the age of criminality from 10 to 12, re - the killers of Jamie Bulger. This was a terrible thing, I know, and justice had to be served, but is it just me? Surely the parents of this pair should have been prosecuted? Shouldn't they?

OP posts:
2shoes · 13/03/2010 22:32

A 10 year old would know that what they did to this child would kill them.
they were found guilty of murdering the child.
yes they were only 10 but what they did was planned and horrific.
believe it or not all kids are not nice.

skidoodle · 13/03/2010 22:33

"Please point me in the direction of the news article about the child from a loving home killing toddlers and torturing pets"

Why? Are you saying it could never happen? If so, on what basis?

You say you want the law changed to prosecute parents if their children commit crimes.

Surely you wouldn't advocate such a massive change to the way we conceive of criminal responsibility purely on the basis of a hunch that only children from bad homes do bad things?

How will your law work if a child of good, responsible parents does a terrible thing? What then? Are the parents responsible?

In your court cases how will you prove that any parent is directly responsible for the particular crime their child committed?

CarGirl · 13/03/2010 22:37

Have you every watched "Lord of the flies" I found it incredibly disturbing, I watched the black and white version when I was about 11. I found it so disturbing as even at that age I could see the ugly truth in it.

CarGirl · 13/03/2010 22:38

Also that Australian case of the 2 girls, only teenagers but who wanted to be toghether so murdered one of the mums - not from some awful home - not perfect parents, but find me some perfect parents!

skidoodle · 13/03/2010 22:41

CarGirl you should see Lord of the Flies 2 - Prosecute the Parents where they go back to England, round up the parents and make them pay for what their sons have done.

CarGirl · 13/03/2010 22:44

, could you imagine the graphic reality if they remade it now

soapboxqueen · 13/03/2010 22:52

The only reason children know right from wrong is because somebody has taught them. Simple as that. If these basic principles are not instilled from the home then any exposure to these basic ideas in school just becomes this odd thing that happens in school and isn't part of normal life.

Many children experience things in their very early lives that would destroy most of us and don't even bare thinking about. And I don't mean they had a parent who shouted at them and gave them a beating either. Really, really horrific stuff. Not all children do turn into violent offenders but some do.

Nobody is suggesting that these children should be given a pat on the back and told not to do it again. However, the idea of locking a child away for the rest of their lives because their parents/carers forced them to lead these horrible lives and then they turned on others, worries me. They should be taken out of society but they should be given the parental support they didn't get at home. They do something like this in Norway.

Most people seem to support abused women who snap and attack their abusive partners. Children are the same. It's just they tend to attack someone weaker than themselves. An abused child will often abuse the family pet or that of the neighbours.

Obviously the parents in these extreme cases, generally, have a lot to answer for but if they've allowed their children to live in depraved conditions, are they really going to care about any consequences?

runnybottom · 13/03/2010 22:52

Its not just about "knowing right from wrong" though is it?
10 year olds are not adults and can't be treated as such. Their brains are FAR from being fully formed, they have limited capacity to appreciate the gravity and consequences of actions, to look ahead, to properly empathise and understand.

This is not opinion, this is fact. The rest of it, meh, who the fuck knows. Something is massively wrong when that kind of thing happens, either physically, or in their upbringing, or with the whole fecking lot of us.

CarGirl · 13/03/2010 22:57

We don't lock them away for the rest of their lives though do we? They are taken out of society and they are given support and teaching etc etc etc

In some ways the age of criminal responsibility is irrelevant IMO it's what we do with childen, the resources that are given to help change their future. Sadly it's the first 5 years of our lives that are the most important in determining our personality/ability to empathise all that kind of thing.

skidoodle · 13/03/2010 22:57

"However, the idea of locking a child away for the rest of their lives because their parents/carers forced them to lead these horrible lives and then they turned on others, worries me."

But what children were locked away for the rest of their lives?

In the case we're talking about the two children were given life sentences, given intensive rehabilitative therapy, let out on licence after 8 years, never served a minute in adult prison, and given lifelong anonymity on release.

I think all of those things were fair. I question whether they should have been tried in adult court, but otherwise think the punishment was proportionate to the crime and their treatment (by the court, not the press) was humane and took their age into consideration.

soapboxqueen · 13/03/2010 22:57

From what I gather 13 is a pivotal age for understanding about others.

2shoes · 13/03/2010 22:59

they were "locked away" for 8 years, bit thier lives.
the only people to serve a life sentance were the victims family

skidoodle · 13/03/2010 23:01

No, they are both still serving life sentences.

They are out on licence, which is why one of them has been recalled to prison and why we are all talking about them again.

2shoes · 13/03/2010 23:03

oh with thier new identitys.....
which were also given to thier loving families.

Missus84 · 13/03/2010 23:03

Yes, a 10 year old knows right from wrong - but they're still not fully responsible for themselves. They're not adults.

If we want a 10 year old to have the same responsibility as an adult, why not give them the same rights as an adult?

MadameDefarge · 13/03/2010 23:05

I find it most illuminating that the people who are most vocal about the "evilness"" of these children are the same ones who advocate violence against others, and indeed the children of those who offend them.

If supposedly reasonable and mentally healthy adults cannot contain their desires for violence, then how the hell are immature, abused children supposed to do it?

Just a thought for the mindless hang and flog em brigade.

2shoes · 13/03/2010 23:06

i wonder if you would feel this way if it had been your child or family member/
it is easy to sit and support these murderers when it has no affect on your own lives, but please spare a thought for the victims family, they have to live with this every day.
(hides thread)

2shoes · 13/03/2010 23:07

MadameDefarge(x posted) funny how the people defending the murderers are the ones throwing arround unfounded insults.

skidoodle · 13/03/2010 23:08

But 10 year olds aren't expected to have the same responsibility as adults. There is a youth justice system that deals with crimes committed by minors.

Are people just pulling arguments out of their asses here?

MadameDefarge · 13/03/2010 23:10

If they want to feel that way, then its understandable. But for the rest of you so called adults its disgusting. You object to them violating basic principles of a civilised society, but object again to them being subject to the rules of civilised society which says we must at the very least try and mend them, and if that fails, protect society from them in the future.

To listen to some people on these threads recently nothing would satisfy their second hand blood lust other than locking children in dark cellars for the rest of their lives, if not killing them outright..

Any of you see the irony? I doubt it.

OrmRenewed · 13/03/2010 23:10

Agree.

We put them in prison and it wasn't exactly a resounding success was it?

runnybottom · 13/03/2010 23:15

I'm with you madamedefarge. I saw a thread last week where a poster said they should have opened the doors of the police van outside the court and let the mob deal with them.
Can you imagine, a person (prob a parent) advocating that vigilantes kill children to save the bother of dealing with them. It made me sick.

MadameDefarge · 13/03/2010 23:16

Yawn.

Whipping yourselves up into a frenzy of self-righteous hatred is mindless mob activity.

Almost as ridiculous as the insulting idea that people who have compassion for damaged children do not also have compassion for victims of crime.

soapboxqueen · 13/03/2010 23:17

Skidoodle - I'm afraid that many people do feel they should have been locked up forever which is why I brought it up. I entirely agree with what you've said. I also think not using the youth court system was unfair.

2shoes- No-one is ignoring the victims or their families and no-one is supporting murderers but I fail to see what is to be achieved by demonizing children. Where will it actually get us? It's just do damn easy to say 'Those children are evil, put them where I can't see them' The same crimes will keep on happening because, as a society, we haven't learned our lesson.

skidoodle · 13/03/2010 23:18

Well we don't know yet whether it was a success or not and because of their new identities we may never know.

A lot of money and time was spent on trying to rehabilitate them. They weren't just "put in prison".

I'm not sure that a failure to rehabilitate them makes the case for their not having been tried and convicted.