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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

in thinking that children don't see in colour?

77 replies

Vallhala · 13/03/2010 00:33

With thanks to Kimi for bringing this to mind.

I'm white and was brought up in an inner-city, multi-cultural environment, back in the days when to say someone was "coloured" wasn't an insult (just to give you an idea of how ancient I am!). My friends were just that - not black, not white, but friends. I knew no different.

I remember my cousin, when we were about 7 or 8, telling us all that her "Black friend was coming to tea". My Auntie corrected her... "V, it's not important that she's Black, all that matters is that she's your friend and it's rude to mention her colour". I went home and that sunny evening stood at the window watching my friends play outside.

"Muuuum!"

"Yes?"

"You know A?"

"Erm... well, yes, I should do, she lives 5 doors from us, is in your class at school and is your best friend!"

"But Mum! She's BLACK!!"

My mother roared with laughter! I swear that until that day I had never noticed that A was Black. Well, of course I did in a way, I have the benefit of vision, but I never saw A as "different".

For the record, many years later another child of that Auntie adopted a Black lad, whom he brought up alongside his natural-born (white) son. The "boys" are in their 40s now and from day one have referred to each other as "My brother".

It all makes me think... AIBU or is colour prejudice a matter of nurture and not nature? Or is my experience unusual?

OP posts:
Mumcentreplus · 13/03/2010 02:13

Milly being treated how you would want to be treated is 'finding out differences'...learning about a person past their 'colour'...as i have said children see differences...but it does not mean they treat a person differently..

Mumcentreplus · 13/03/2010 02:16

I would want someone to learn about 'me'..not just physically but mentally, not concerntrating on my colour/hair/shoes but who i am as a person..thats how i would like to be treated..and thats how I have always felt..

longfingernails · 13/03/2010 02:18

Yes, the "pink" and "blue" thing was a bit but the fundamental point was a good one I think.

Embarrassment about talking about race can lead to inadvertent "racist" attitudes.

longfingernails · 13/03/2010 02:22

Agreed that racial issues are different in the UK and US, but that shouldn't impact how children learn and think about equality.

lowrib · 13/03/2010 02:22

ToccataAndFudge - for the study done in the US, it's very possible that the black children in the study actually included mixed-race children. Americans have a different view about what is meant by being black - where if any of your ancestors were black, then you are termed black, rather than mixed-race as you would be in the UK.

This is partly a legacy of mixed race marriages being illegal in many states till as late as the 60s. Also the "One drop" rule was law until the 60s - it meant that if you had any black ancestors then legally you were considered black. Which is pretty racist if you think about it - it implies you are either white, or 'tainted'.

It's very telling IMO that the 2000 census was the first time in the US that people could identify themselves as mixed in a census.

Sorry went off on a bit of a tangent there. more here if you're interested

FWIW I absolutely agree that children are taught to be racist.

ToccataAndFudge · 13/03/2010 02:22

I'm not sure about the article to be honest, it was talking a lot about segregation in US terms.

And while yes, of course institutional racism and racism from society as a whole has happened in the UK (and still does) I don't think the issues are quite the same in the UK iykwim

multivac · 13/03/2010 02:30

...and forcing it into conversations because you feel you should be 'addressing' it can lead to issues being created unnecessarily.

D'you know what? If I were to watch a TV adaptation of Tess of the D'Urberbilles; and the leading role were played by a black actress, I'd be surprised, and thoughtful in a way I wouldn't be were she white. Why on earth wouldn't those kids be suprised by the notion of a black Santa? It's part of the same process that means that Jesus usually reveals himself to people from a largely Christian background, and Mohammed to those whose influences are Muslim.

The other day in the supermarket checkout, one of my sons (five) looked over at the next queue and asked me loudly, with a 'painting the face' gesture, 'why that family are all brown?' I reminded him that skin comes in all sorts of colours - a bit surprised, as I thought he'd already grasped that point. Which, as it turned out, he had - he was confused by genetics.

It's so foolish to pretend that anyone is colourblind.

ToccataAndFudge · 13/03/2010 02:31

lowrib - x posts with you there. You just explained much more my point about the differences.........but then the US does tend to be a long way behind on lots of things.

I was to discover in my course recently that when the US has not ratified the UNCRC!!(along with Somalia).

So I'm always a little cautious at looking to the US/US studies to show the way forward when it comes to our children etc.........

Mumcentreplus · 13/03/2010 02:31

In the US it is different...I remember when I was 14 or there abouts my cousin who was from the US was shocked white and black people played together??!!..lived in the same area...were friends??!!

MillyR · 13/03/2010 02:33

The issues are different in the US because most people consider themselves to have some sort of dual identity between where their ancestors lived . People are 'Irish American' or 'Italian American' or African American.'

I looked at a British equal opportunities form recently and it gave choices of White British, White English, White Scottish, White Welsh, White Irish, White Cornish. The only UK related Black category was Black British. I think that reflects issues of race - English, Welsh and so on have become seen as white identities, which is really quite a negative situation. Being American is not linked so strongly to being white.

ToccataAndFudge · 13/03/2010 02:33

lol multivac........DS2 stood in an (almost) empty aisle in Morrisons several years ago and shouted (and pointed) very loudly at an Asian man dressed up in his

multivac · 13/03/2010 02:39

TaF - oh, I cringed! And yes, 'that family' were largly collapsed in hysterics...

multivac · 13/03/2010 02:39

largEly

longfingernails · 13/03/2010 02:42

For all America's faults, minorities have achieved things there which they never would, or could, in Britain as it stands today. There are some rather obvious examples!

We're the country which has elected BNP MEPs. I hardly think the state of race relations in Britain is a shining beacon to the world.

multivac · 13/03/2010 02:45

Margaret Thatcher wasn't 'mixed gender', as I recall..

tristanjohn · 13/03/2010 02:47

I'm from the US and there is a lot of racism here. We say we are not but it is not a fact. I was raised to be indifferent to race I come from mixed blood (Spanish and Caucasian. That is the US wording for White. I grew up in a town to this day no African American live there and if they move there they leave, soon they realize they are the only ones in town.

ToccataAndFudge · 13/03/2010 02:47

no it's not a shining beacon - but race relations/issues in the UK are different from those in the US.

Yes we had the "no dogs, no Irish, no Blacks" in the UK in fairly recent history - but nothing on the scale of mass segregation that the US had.

longfingernails · 13/03/2010 02:48

Of course, discrimination is much more explicit and more entrenched in America, with the history of slavery and segregation.

That doesn't mean we can't take heed from research done there.

Baltic1 · 13/03/2010 02:48

I remember very clearly the first time when my son was introduced to the concept of race. My son was visiting a friend´s house - he returned very excited and told me that he´d met a real princess. He said that she was wearing gold and was beautiful. She was actually just wearing a West African outfit. I can remember her name, but would prefer not to use it here.

I remember laughing and telling me friend. The response by my friend in front of my son was - Oh I don´t think her father would like to hear him say that - I asked why? - response was well your son is blonde and white as they come.

Son really didn´t understand what he had said/done wrong. It was one of those moments - you have to explain something that is well beyond your child´s understanding. Also I resented that I was having to implant a concept in his mind that in all honesty - and in an ideal world - doesn´t have to be there in any form.

It was a bit sad really.

ToccataAndFudge · 13/03/2010 02:48

oh I need to sleep - you've lost me on the mixed-gender post

night all

MillyR · 13/03/2010 02:50

Many Americans that I have met do not consider America to be more racist. They consider the English to be more racist because of our recent history of imperialism.

Mumcentreplus · 13/03/2010 02:51

Baltic tbh that person has their own issues..princess appreciation does not have a colour..lol

ToccataAndFudge · 13/03/2010 02:51

oh come - we are talking about how we teach our children are colour/diversity/racism.

The US has NOT RAITIFED the United Nations Convention on the rights of the Child - they are one of only 2 countries in the world not to have done so.

You just can't look at a study done in a country where the issues are different and use it as something that will work in a totaly different country and society. The issues are far to complex to use a blanket "one rule fits all"

ToccataAndFudge · 13/03/2010 02:53

and if we are going to look at reserach done in the US I would like to see the research - not the news article that was written from it.

Mumcentreplus · 13/03/2010 02:53

nite Toccs..