to think I'm a victim of sex discrimination

[herethereandeverywhere]

My existing mortgage company has refused our application to extend our mortgage (so that we can move house) because I am on maternity leave. They have stated that they can't be sure I will go back to work

A few things to consider:

1. I have a job. I will return on exactly the same terms, full time same salary. My employer is under a legal obligation to treat me just as I was before I went on maternity leave, why should the mortgage provider be any different?
2. I have confirmed my intention (to the mortgage company) to return to work full time.
3. Insurance companies are not allowed to cite pregnancy as a reason for increased insurance premium (due to increased perceived risk) - why are mortgage providers any different?
4. Surely my husband (in fact any non-mother) could also choose to not return to work at any point during or following a mortgage application. Why is the case of a mother on maternity leave different?

Fuming. Have never ever felt so discriminated against. I'm insulted that my word is not enough. I'm mistrusted because I'm a mum!

Because they know that a good proportion of women do not return to work after mat leave and they have an obligation to lend responsibly.
You are asking them for money which they do not have to give you. They risk assess you based on proven criteria and you do not currently meet it.

YABU. And you should try actually being a "victim" of discrimination, because this isn't it.

OP I think you are right but unfortunately you are trying to buy a product from them, and you have no more grounds for complaint than I did when my local cafe persistently refused to serve me a dippy fried egg.

YABU.

It's frustrating for you but it's not sex discrimination. Many women on maternity leave who originally planned to go back to work later decide not to return to work after all and at least with this mortgage decision you won't be in the unfortunate and stressful position of not being able to make the mortgage repayments should you end up not returning to work for any reason.
Mortgage companies lend huge sums of money to people and if they can't guarantee that the repayments will be made then they aren't going to risk their loan.
It's in their best interests and it's protecting you from the risk of defaulting on payments if something comes up that means you don't return to work as planned after your maternity leave.

Just wait until you are back at work before making any changes to your mortgage application.

yabu.

You are currently on maternity leave - I am assuming you're not actually being paid full salary at the moment?

Many women don't return to work after having a baby. I didn't, - in fact I went on maternity leave then took a two year career break and then resigned.

Mortgage companies base their decisions on risk, and currently the risk is that you will not be earning the money you say you will be earning at some point in the future (when you return from mat leave).

You are not being discriminated against on the basis of your sex. If a man was on a six month career break with an intended return date he would equally be turned down for a mortgage.

"I'm insulted that my word is not enough"

Why feel insulted? Of course your word isn't enough. If it was, none of us would ever have to provide proof of identity, utility bills and payslips when we apply for mortgages, nor would we ever need to confirm anything in writing.

"I'm mistrusted because I'm a mum! "

You are not mistrusted because you are a mum. They are just understandably hesitant to lend money to a mother on maternity leave who may yet decide not to return to work.

"They have stated that they can't be sure I will go back to work "

That's because they can't be sure that you will go back to work.

So much for the sisterhood!

Runnybottom: I work in a male dominated profession (corporate law) and encounter discrimination regularly. I've been paid less than a male equivalent colleague and tried to jump through the hoops to get it sorted without being "let go". Believe me, I know discrimination personally. I assume from your post that you do too.

Due to my job I have high expectations of being treated equally as a person in the workplace, hence my frustration at the mortgage company assuming I'm going to bin my hard-fought career "because lots of women don't go back to work"

The point about me deciding whether to return to work: how is that any different from my husband deciding to give up his job? His word is enough when it comes to confirming his intention to continue to work, why isn't mine? I don't see why they can be any less sure of me working than him.

WannaBe: They aren't bothered about the temporary reduction in salary - to be honest our savings easily cover this. We're actually overpaying our current mortgage to an amount in excess of that we'd repay each month on the new amount so affordability is not an issue.

I has this recently and some lenders will take into account your full salary when you are on mat leave - our remortgage is through the halifax, through london and country brokers. Al they need is a letter from my employer confirming my usual salary.

As for the other stuff - I was a bit surprised at the numbers who wouldn't take my salary into account when I called around. The norm seems to be they won't.

But then, they have to make sure that they are lending responsibly. And many women don't go back after mat leave, many others reduce their hours. So I don't think it is unreasonable of them. They have to assess the risks as they see fit.

"Runnybottom: I work in a male dominated profession (corporate law) and encounter discrimination regularly. I've been paid less than a male equivalent colleague and tried to jump through the hoops to get it sorted without being "let go". Believe me, I know discrimination personally. I assume from your post that you do too.

Due to my job I have high expectations of being treated equally as a person in the workplace, hence my frustration at the mortgage company assuming I'm going to bin my hard-fought career "because lots of women don't go back to work"

Ummmmm you totally contradict yourself there. Are you discriminated against at work or are you treated as equal to men?

I have also experienced discrimination at work FWIW, and it is shitty, but the mortgage thing is different IMO.

The point about me deciding whether to return to work: how is that any different from my husband deciding to give up his job? His word is enough when it comes to confirming his intention to continue to work, why isn't mine? I don't see why they can be any less sure of me working than him."

Because most men don't suddenly completely jack their jobs in without something pretty huge happening. Especially men with families and a mortgage.

Like it or not, it is usually women who pack in work or go part time after a baby. Even if it wasn't, and your DH became a SAHD, or went part time, your family income would still be much less.

They have the statistics and they are using them to form their lending criteria. Their criteria say that they may not take women's usual income into account if they are on mat leave, because statistically there is a good chance that they will stop working or go part time at the end of their mat leave.

I am surprised that you have to disclose that you are on maternity leave- is this required- I thought they would just ask if you were in full time employment etc...

I am about to go on maternity leave and we are currently looking for a house to buy- if we find one the mortgage will be based on my earnings - so if mortgage companies make assumptions that I won't return to work this would entirely scupper me

albino it comes out with the payslips - unless you are someone lucky enough to be on full pay mat leave.

My payslips show £0 a month at the mo.

YANBU, Seriously can't believe that you are being given such a hard time here!

Men do jack in their jobs for no apparent reason all the time. DH did. Decided that he wasn't happy, gave up a perfectly good and highly paid job and went travelling for six months. Obviously this was went he was single but lots of people do it. But mortgage companies do assume that if you have a job you will keep working, and currently you do have a job.

Also I suspect that the numbers of women who give up work when they earn a high, professional income are less than ones that don't. Certainly from personal experience, the only women I know who have given up work after maternity leave earn significantly less than their partners.

From a practical point of view, have you tried looking at different mortgage providers or gone to a broker? Someone else may be able to offer something suitable.

I would like to point out that if banks were told that their lending criteria had to allow for women's full usual salaries, while they were on mat leave, as it was discriminatory;

Then all the banks would simply amend their lending criteria for everyone to take into account the defaults that would occur from people borrowing at their limit and then packing in work.

So you either don't get mat leave taken into account, or everyone gets a lower amount they are allowed to borrow & affordability is calculated more harshly.

happysmiley loads of women go part time, even in highly paid professions, believe it or not. I did.

We would like for me to go back ful time, and DH to go part time. But his job won't accomoddate part time. So I am part time. That sort of thing happens all the time. How many SAHD/men working part time do you know compared to women?

The stuff about my discrimination at work could take up an entirely different thread!

The pay thing in a nutshell: I billed sigificantly more for the firm than him but he was seen as the safer bet [because I can have (and have now had!) a baby - not that that's an explicit reason]. Not really to do with negotiation.

ISNT: Although I'm treated equally most of the time, clients often assume I'm a secretary (some have even refused to deal with a woman as its assumed I'm too junior) and I almost never get invited to marketing events as its assumed I won't be interested in rugby/golf/football so miss valuable relationship building time with clients. I'm also used to hearing male bosses describe my conversations with female colleagues as "mothers meetings" and have been described as a "silly little girl" by a male boss (he'd never refer to a man as a silly little boy, regardless of what he'd supposedly done). I'm afraid its a case of picking your fights wisely if you want to get on. I fight to do the best work for the best clients and usually do. I arrange my own (small scale) marketing but some things you have to let go. If you want to been seen as an equal you can't be seen to be continuously complaining about being different.

Anyway, back to the main point! Thanks for the halifax tip ISNT, we're just engaging a broker to try to find a provider who'll believe my intention to return to work and so take my salary into consideration.

Albinosquirrel there was no obvious requirement on the form to disclose I was pregnant at the time of the application so I didn't (I assumed they couldn't ask that due to gender discrimination!). The application was still ongoing when I went on mat. leave and the mortgage company called to confront us about why we hadn't told them! I have no idea how they found out (change in tax code maybe?) so be careful.

Its the attitude of "take the stereotype of a woman, stays at home with the kids, and apply it to all" that doesn't seem fair to me.

I think the OP is right to be annoyed by this and the point she makes re why there's an assumption that her DH won't jack his job in post-baby is a valid one. I don't see this as a responsible lending issue; it is discrimination, because the OP is being treated differently to her husband, purely on the grounds of her gender.

All I can suggest is that you find a good broker and shop around. I wouldn't want to borrow money from an institution with that attitude if I could possibly avoid it.

Wow, herethereandeverywhere, I thought the discrimination in my male dominated, professional environment was bad - your seems horrendous!!

To be fair, I have been at the company for 8 years and have just started maternity leave number 4, so they may have a point about me being more committed to my family than my career.

I don't think it's discrimination from the mortgage company - it might be irritating, but they have a legal duty to lend responsibly - many highly paid professionals don't return to work after having a baby, and so they have to take it into account. I am sure that if the legislation is passed that will allow men to take part of the mother's maternity leave, then the forms will be amended to take account of those circumstances too.

The discrimination at work thing - I used to work in financial services (the bit with the 40% pay gap) and have experienced all the things you have mentioned. I also found out they had taken on a new person in a more junior role, who I was training, who had 10 years less experience than me, and paying him only marginally less than me.

I threw a wobbly, they said we weren't allowed to discuss pay, I continued, but I was pg at the time and thus had sod all bargaining power. We parted company. I was so about the whole thing but it is the norm in that sector.

Isnt, I know plenty of women who have gone part time. But that for most professional women that means either four days a week or leave at four. I can't think of anyone I know who would earn less than 80% of what they did pre children. Not enough to tip the balance for a mortgage.

So would you advocate mortgage companies taking the job and pay level of the woman into account, then offering full mortgages to rich professional women, but declining women who didn't earn as much or were in a "non professional" role?

I also don't see why companies lending vast amounts of money should have to take into account full pay for women who are only going to be earning 80% of that - how do you know it won't tip the balance?

Plus I know stacks of women who have gone down to 2 or 3 days, or 4 or full time. Or none. Or gone to a different lower paid ob nearer to home. Or changed industry completely afetr children, seeing it as a fresh start. Your argument that professional women all go back full time is weird TBH. Does it occur to you that you and your friends are all exactly the same sort of people, and that actually there are other sorts of people in the world?

YANBU in feeling pissed off about it - I would be fuming. Even if you DID choose not to go back to work what sort of idiot would make that decision if it means they then have a mortgage that they couldnt afford?

Whilst not being paid a full salary at the moment you are at least technically still employed - how is this different to someone who works in, say the City, applying for a mortgage but who is at big risk of redundancy due to the economic situation?

The 80% not tipping the balance is with regards to the OP who is currently overpaying her mortgage and appears to be applying for a mortgage that she would be comfortable repaying if she returned to work.

Of course not everyone is the same. What I aam saying is that as much as you can say that women are generally more likely to give up work than men (very true) there are particular circumstances where certain women in society are more or less likely to give up work than others. Unless the mortgage company wishes to ask lots of very personal questions, they cannot have a full picture and are working to a very crude stereotype.

"So much for the sisterhood!" - You didn't ask for support, you asked if you were being unreasonable!

For the record, I think that YANBU. We moved during my Maternity leave and the mortgage company accepted a letter from my employer stating that I would be returning to work on x date.

YANBU to be cross about it, but from their point of view it's all about balancing risks. The bottom line is that a large percentage of women going on maternity leave will either not go back at all or will go back on some kind of part time arrangement. Many of those initially thought they'd go back full time but then changed their mind.

Yes your DH could just leave his job as well, but the risk to the mortgage company of that happening is much much smaller.