To wonder what sort of "child" thinks it is ok to behave like this?

[KimiGaveUpStarbucks4Lent]

Picked DS2 up from school today, popped in to a shop then headed home,saw a group from the local sink high school out side the burger bar (nothing unusual about that often out there cussing and smoking) seemed to be a bit of a debate going on between one of the boys and a girl, the boy and two of his mates walk in to the shop clearly not wanting to talk to the girl and 3 other boys follow them in and beat the shit out of them and threw chairs and anything else they could get hold of at them.
The owner shouting at them to stop it got told to "fuck off pakie" and as I rushed my 9 year old across the road to the safty of my place of work one of the little fuckers sods went to chuck a chair through a plate glass window.

My boss was on the phone to the police as my son watch it all in shock (although he loved the police cars that raced in).

The local sink school has had more money thrown at it then any other school in the area, it has been on report, got a new head x 5 or 6 changed its name 4 times and is now in partnership with a very outstanding school to try and drag it out of the gutter.

I watch these kids and I think why even bother TBH when they behave like animals.

I live in Surrey so it is not as if we are in the bronx. I know one thing it will be a cold day in hell before I ever let DS2 near that school, even if I have to move house for 2011.

What the hell do kids like these learn at home if they think this is a way to live.. hell in a hand cart.

Yes, ownership of this is really important... but that is something LEARNT. I don't think you pity them because of it, that is not the right response... it needs to be. Okay.. this is what is expected, but with the awareness that the kids (for whatever reason), find it hard to meet those expectations. Empowerment is a huge stepping stone, and part of that is self awareness (on a + level), and OWNerSHIP of own mistakes (and seeing them as such)... but getting to this stage can be really complicated can't it? I think the day I realised that I was letting all the neg things people said to me affect me was an important day... but till then it was all about how THEY had hurt ME (they had, but by me dwelling on it yrs later, I was the one carrying it on, not them...iyswim). Takes a person a LONG while to get that... Oh and there are still days when old behaviours creep up.

No, reasons and excuses don't help - although they may help to 'set' the behaviours in terms of their context. Individuals absolutely have to accept/take the consequences of their actions. But that doesn't mean we should condemn the person (or their community/school) as some people on here seem to be doing.

If a person is treated as a failure, that is the way he/she is likely to turn out. If a person's behaviour is deplored but, he, as a person, is still given chances to move on from that behaviour (rather than assumed to be a feral child from a sink school and thus suitable cannon fodder - still fuming at that) then he may, in time, find a better way.

I don't think the schools can do much about it. The parents are also not always to blame. These boys may behave well at home, but it is when they are out with their peers that the problems start. Parents have little control over what they get up to when they are out with their friends. They are young people exerting power and influence, seeking control and respect. They behave like little generals in a world where only they count. That is why they don't think twice about attacking their rivals. The good news is that it is a phase that they go through as youngsters, and when they get older, marry and settle down, it disappears.

Our society is not very good at the socialisation of youngsters, and a lot of our mores such as the drinking culture and other messages that youngsters receive from TV and magazines, lead to an alienation from society. Some other societies in Europe are better at socialising their youngsters.

'If a person is treated as a failure, that is the way he/she is likely to turn out. If a person's behaviour is deplored but, he, as a person, is still given chances to move on from that behaviour (rather than assumed to be a feral child from a sink school and thus suitable cannon fodder - still fuming at that) then he may, in time, find a better way.'

Perfectly put, Janeite.
As I mentioned earlier, dh was a 'feral' child, little or no parental imput, caused trouble at school, told often he would amount to nothing and whole heartedly believed it.
His then gf's father saw qualities in him that had previously been missed by his parents and teachers. He gave him a job, a purpose, and gave him the self confidence to believe he could achieve all the things he had thought impossible.

Kimi, I would get out of Surrey quickly if I were you 'tis terribly rough these days .

Here's a novel idea, why don't you do something to help?

Maybe become a Scout or Guide volunteer or help out at local youth group?

DH used to work in a school in special measures and he bloody loved those kids. It is a lot,lot harder to teach somewhere like that than in the poncey school he is at now, and a lot more rewarding.

DH1 is a cub leader, but even when you do have nice things like cubs/scouts youth clubs kids like these do not go, the parents wont pay for any of the stuff.

Bring back National Service, that will instill a sense of pride, self worth and discipline to these thugs youths

Where is the poor shop owner in all of this? Whos feeling sorry for him and those youths causing him psychological distress and physcal damage to his shop. Yes many youths who are badly behaved are victims of their circumstances, Jamie Bulgers killers are a prime example, when are we going to stop making excuses for them and feel for their victims. Really it does come down to the break down of the family life and a cycle of dependency, poverty and many other factors, sometimes whatever upbringing you give them some are born that way and you cant change them. We really have to get to the core of it to change things but how?

Well that might be an idea, something has to be done.

I expect that if you or your family were the victim of a crime committed by these youths i dont think that you would be so forgiving. A similar incident to Jamie Bulger was in Elkington (please correct me) whereby two boys were tortured by thugs, i expect that if you were the mother or father or these victims it would be a different story.

This reminds me of the bus the other day. A white girl got on the bus, stood at the front and made a phone call. It went something like

"you're not a fucking geeza you're a fucking paki you fucking.... [then the bit that got me] I'm fucking supposed to be your fucking girl you fucking..."

That, with the "punctuation" went on for about five minutes before he got on the bus then it carried on between them. I was so glad Toddler was at nursery! I still felt like covering Baby's ears though. I looked around the bus and everyone had identical looks on their faces, total shock.

Piglet - but nobody is excusing their behaviour, as far as I can see. They are objecting to children being described as 'feral' and 'cannon fodder' I believe.

Well sorry Janeit they are especially those who committed those awful crimes on Jamie Bulger and those other kids who torturned nearly to death those two boys, what would you call them.

I can only say again that you are wrong. Their behaviour was disgusting, of course it was. But a society that sees children as feral but fails to address the problems in some families, that reduce them to this disgusting behaviour, is never going to improve.

And a 'string em up' mentality merely puts a sticking plaster on an issue to appease people baying for blood and does nothing to address the problems inherent in certain sectors of society that produce such young criminals.

But - to return to the OP - please don't blame the schools.

Bring back national service is what i say

Twice in fact

On the other hand.......

My mother is in a wheelchair and has a very bad habit of putting her phone down the side of the chair.

So yesterday I take her shopping and she lost the phone, she did not even know she had lost it until I got a call from my sister in Essex to say a young man had phoned her to say he had found a phone and she was the last number dialed. So she phoned me and I went to the coffee shop he was in and retrieved mums phone.

Now this young man and his friens were about 15 and 17, my mothers phone is a nice one and a pay as you talk and not locked to a network, so all it would need is a new sim and someone would have a very nice phone and mum would have had to shell out ££££££ for a new one.

I offered them money as a thank you but they would not take it, so despite a lot of todays youth not being worth the time of day these two lovely young men really made my day. Maybe it is a culture thing.