'ODD'or just naughty kids with ineffective parenting?

[Rosebud123]

ODD - please! I have a friend whose child has just been 'diagnosed' with ODD.Having known her since a toddler, I have witnessed lack of structure and inconsistency since then. Her behaviour has escalated,understandably. Children need to know what is ok and what is not ok. Did you know that ODD children are now being medicalised?We are rearing a generation of children on ritalin and antidepressants which I find completely shocking.Children need our repect and proper parenting so they don't end up thinking the answer to all life's difficulties lies in pills.A friend who is a social worker says ODD is what children are called when they are told to go to bed and they refuse. Exactly!I found that going to ongoing parenting classes has helped in all aspects of my kids development when I didn't know what else to do. I wonder what Supernanny thinks of 'ODD'..

It says 'Consider a criterion met only if the behavior occurs more frequently than is typically observed in individuals of comparable age and developmental level.'

So that would exclude most toddlers

Of course there are situations where you can't get a child to behave. My severely autistic son is 10 years old with the language of a 12-18 month old. If he decides he is going to sit on the pavement as he did yesterday there isn't a lot I can do about it (except keep him safe and try countdowns and keep trying to move him).

I know a couple of children diagnosed with ODD- FWIW thir behaviour is far beyond normal and they have siblings who have no problem behaving, so I've never seen the diagnosis as anything other than accurate.

I kind of see both sides of this (having also worked in the field in the past). In some ways things like EBD/ADHD/ODD really are instances off messed up child syndrome. The kids with it have responded to situations in their lives that they have little understanding of and it has disturbed their development. This is often outside the parental control, but equally not always so (in the case of a child being abused/witnessing domestic violence etc). having said that, many people have traumatic experiences in childhood and don't go on to develop these disorders, so I believe that some kids are prone to this... and ineffectual parenting can exacerbate it. My ineffectual I don't mean soft parents who believe they are doing the best, but the kind that think it is acceptable to swear at their kids, shout 24/7 and let them roam the streets throwing bricks at things etc (I speak of specifics here).
That said, when I worked in a residential setting for ASD with challenging behaviours, several children displayed ODD, and one was diagnosed with PDA (pathological demand avoidance)... whereby we would have to phrase our demands VERY carefully or the young person would become very, very aggressive.

That said, I feel like a crap parent at times because some days I just don't know what to do with DS. He isn't aggressive all the time, or even very powerfully so, but his mood can be very unstable and hard to guess...He is verging on eccentric now and while I try elements of behaviour management that worked with the students in the past, DH is convinced we just need to be harder on him (I'm not). I was offered parenting classes, but they never contacted me, and I didn't feel very confident about chasing it up. He can be managed, he just does things sometimes which socially speaking make him seem a little strange to others (licking and kissing his friends etc- I have told him that licking is unhealthy and unacceptable!!!). He also has no idea about where play fighting ends (which is great when his friends initiate it, not). At least he listens to his teachers... he just tells me he finds it hard being good all the time because his brain makes him naughty! To which I said, No, you CHOOSE to do the wrong thing, sometimes it is hard to stop and make the right choice, but all the same, you choose.

Sorry went on a tangent there

I think it is oh so easy to sit in judgement if you aren't the one with a child with behavioural problems.

We have always parented both our children firmly yet lovingly. There has been no significant trauma in their lives. They have had - are having - a very normal, happy childhood. Yet our oldest child has fairly severe behavioural problems (yet to be diagnosed).

It is really unhelpful to make smug generalisations in the manner of the OP.

Plenty of well brought up, well-loved kids have behavioural problems. Plenty of kids from really shitty backgrounds are well behaved. It isn't as simple as your portray.

as you portray

About 12 years ago my DS was dx with ODD by a psych who had not even met him

My DS did have a LOT of the symptoms of ADHD and was dx quite young. However these symptoms eased dramatically when we managed to move from our tiny 3rd floor flat into a house where he could play outside all day in the summer.

He has issues now he is 16 but you wouldnt look at him and think 'adhd' the way you wouldve when he was 2-3.

We stepped away from the dx because all they would do was offer us medication. I have worked with children with severe adhd and I feel meds have an important part to play with some children. Its the only way to keep them really safe and to help them manage. No way my DS needed them though. He needed to be helped to manage his impulsive behaviour and take advantage of his 'condition' and to channel all that energy.

This is NOT the case for all children with ADHD particularly if it is present with LDs or other conditions.

I think that ODD is something that can develop over the years if a child has an undx of ADHD, ASD etc. All that confusion and negative attention are bound to lead to children becoming angry and defiant surely?

Annasceptic.

When I spoke of traumatic experiences possibly triggering such respones which lead to these conditions I was speaking of specific children. I also know many whose backgrounds were stable, and they still developed things like ODD etc. I.e there is something within the child that makes them more prone to such conditions...

The same is true of depression, to which I am prone (or rather my brain/memory whatever follows pathways, learnt responses etc which are same old same old, even if situation is not the same).

Some chilren develop learnt responses to things, but this does not necessarily indicate poor parenting etc, it's ofetn just how the child is... that's not to say they can't leanr new ways but that this MUST be taken into account when managing a child's behaviour. Therefore a diagnosis of ODD can be useful because it might influence how we resond to a child, approach them in a behaviour management sense.

LeQueen, you managed those kids cos you knew them, you knew what they might find challenging and you had an idea how to manage that; the diagnosis helps. Sometimes people need a label before they respond in different ways to a child's behaviour (i.e in a way tailored to the needs of the child/young person, which allows them to learn ways to self manage, and NOT kick off every time an adult tells them it is time to sit down/brush teeth/change rooms etc)

I dont think ODD is real at all!

ADHD yes is very real and anyone suffering from it has my sympathy and understanding.

Some kids are more trying than others and some parents are crap at making them behave.

I think that some people want a DX for their Dc and use it as an excuse for being crap.

I was told by peads that it (ODD) was a pile of shite and I agree.

Somtimes children dont have 'sn' but do need help from specalists to get over problems with their behaviour and will be fine when treatment is over.

My child says please and thank you.
She also broke her bed and kicked a hole in her bedroom wall last week. I must be one crappy mother and it's just my other two's nature that makes them wonderful human beings.
She has RAD, Epilepsy and Foetal Alcohol Syndrome and if she doesn't want to do something then she won't. She doesn't get away with it, there are always consequences but I would really like to see how all the experts on this thread would deal with her.
Cory... I understood completely what you said about your friend's child because unless someone has had the pleasure of DD without me being there, they don't understand our parenting. People think we don't give enough freedom to DD but we can't because she is a danger to herself and other children. Some of my kindly friends and family have learned this the hard way.
I am currently at my wits end with her and can fully understand why some parents might seek medical intervention.

ODD does exist, DS1 has ODD is it down to my parenting? who knows, is it Genetical - recent studies say it can be. By the way it looks like my nephew also has the same disorder, and i didn;t parent him.

It is vastly different to a child refusing to do what you ask them to do, its much more than being that simple tbh.

ODD CAN be apparent in either the home or the school or both. but this is rarer, it is more common for ODD children to oppose against one persons rules i.e mums/dad/teacher.

A prime example is ds1 who can be a joy to be around but who you walk on eggshells around incase you say the wrong thing....eg: i had to cut his hair because it was far too long, i ended up after an hour getting my neighbour in to help me because i could not get him to cooperate with me....it too 4 hours to shave his hair. he sat perfectly still for my neighbour and never said a word.

Ive not read the thread, i don't know anything about ODD, but i had to laugh at this "I wonder what Supernanny thinks of 'ODD'.. "

Well personally, i couldn't care a monkeys WHAT supernanny thinks about anything.

I worry about labels to, but if there is scientific evidence to suggest that certain behaviours are a result of a physiological condition, we cannot ignore that.

Britfish - i understand what you are saying, i am sorry that your dad isn't getting the support he needs. Men, especially of the older generation just wont ask for help, they view it as a weakness. That is where i think the "labels" actually help to a certain degree. When i was depressed, i didn't know what was going on, i thought i was a weak person - when i got a "label" it helped me to rationalise what was going on in my head and helped me cope with it, does that make sense?

None of us want to be a bad parent, however society puts us under pressure to be perfect so quite frankly, if our child isn't on the G&T register then we feel a failure. Some parents, despite their best efforts might look for a diagnosis because they want something solid to work with - if you have a dx then there are treatments (not necc meds - that DOES worry me, i wouldnt want my child on ADs, having been on them myself for some years) but protocols that can be followed to try and help. So, if it turns out that it is "bad parenting" that is almost harder in some way to stomach, you're doing your very best, but its not working, so not only do you feel the shittest of shit, you are at the end of the road, no dx just a "naughty" child - so what then? Give up? So while i do think a % of children and adults are being wrongly "labelled" there are certainly those who have slipped through the dx net and their lives are poorer because of it.

My DP, i am pretty sure, is dyslexic but at school he was passed off as, well, not very bright. His parents didnt know any better so he struggles with reading and spelling. My cousin is completely illiterate, had he been at school now, maybe a dx of dyslexia or something might have helped him learn to read? Both in their 40s so these things were probably very new/unheard of.

at what age can they diagnose odd-presumably at least schoool age cos just looking at the list and picking 4 behaviours which need to be present over 6 months

that means over a period of 6 months not 6m old.

RAD is another dx that is very hard to get and often dismissed as imaginary. Personally I think it must be one of the most difficult of all conditions to live with. Not least because there is so much ignorance about it.

chegirl.... you're so right

I'd like to change my name to shockershadabloodynuff today.

Awww shockers you are doing a grand job I am sure.

DS doesnt have RAD but he does have shaky foundations IYSWIM. That alone causes untold problems. I cannot imagine having to cope with RAD or anything close.

Hope you have a good night's sleep

All my sympathy shockers. And I think you're right chegirl - it was a difficult dx to get and getting expert help in it is even more difficult.

I imagine that you use the diagnostic list in a similar way to that in which you would fill in an application for Disability Living Allowance. That is, you are comparing with
non-affected children the same age and only counting things that are radically different.

Thanks girls... it's been a particularly bad day today but they aren't all like that! You're a lovely lot and unbeknown to you all, you keep me sane and in good humour

Mouth and Trousers

The fact that many children with behavioural problems don't have Sn, is why broader DX can be useful. I.e for some people it tells them the child is not just naughty . I honestly believe that people should work at various strategies for all children, not just those with dx SEN. Thankfully DS's school does just this, and manages his little quirky moments carefully but firmly, and hopefully helping him! I guess it is about meeting the needs of the individual, and unfortunately some people won't/can't help unless they have a label to work with. Argh... There is a great poem about labels (written by a mother whose child was gong through the diagnostic process)... anyone know it?

Labelling parenting as at fault is unhelpful in all cases (even those where neglect etc certainly plays a part... because frankly, is that going to make them STOP abusing their child? And have th people saying they are bad actually got to the root of the problem etc etc)...

bigstripeytiger - thank you. I'm glad that you've been able to put me straight on that one. I wasn't trying to be dismissive of conditions, but I hadn't heard of that one so could only go on what the OP had said at the time I typed my reply. Unfortunately, seeing the fuller picture, it seems I lucked onto someone who doesn't particularly understand the inns and outs of behavioural difficulties. I am sorry if my comments came across as dismissive and insensitive, as I could only base them on the OP's provided information, which, in hindsight, was pretty dim. I hate people who leap in and make judgey remarks, and yet that was just what I did.

As I mentioned, my brother has SEN - when he was younger he was diagnosed as ADHD (though where they got that from I've no idea; he has never been hyperactive at all!) and semantic pragmatic. My mum is slaving towards a re-diagnosis as sem. prag. is no longer in use. It's an uphill battle, and it is often a struggle to get people who meet him to understand that there really is a problem, as now that he's in his late teens he doesn't seem to have any problems of the surface at all - unless you try and get him to explain anything to you, when his comunication disorder leaves him muddled and generally lost.

Behavioural disorders which are legitimate are obviously no different to this, in as much as they are real conditions, and need treating - whether by a lot of work with people who know how to deal with them or by medication. What I was trying clumsily to say was that there is a big difference between people who have real disorders which are beyond the control of the parent, and people who are the victims of lazy parenting, who can appear as 'badly behaved' through lack of an appropriate upbringing. When I said medical condition, I was trying to distinguish between the two scenarios, but I guess it was the wrong word to use. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I do agree with both your post, and the OP's to a certain extent Harpy. The problem with the OP's is that a lot of folk feel like that about all behavioural conditions if they're lucky enough to just be watching from the sidelines.

I have done it myself with some of the children in my class.

Ineffective parenting is indeed a major contribution to the sort of behaviours associated with ODD but we have to be careful about dismissing other factors that parents may feel that are private...ie, adoption (I know of at least 3 adopted children who have a diagnosis of ODD).

The friend who told Rosebud her theory on ODD was a social worker. I'm wondering if she is more likely to be in contact with children who already have trauma in their lives.
Saying "NO" might be a way of gaining control in a life where they are given few options.

How do you explain people who have several well-behaved kids and only one with ODD then? It's clearly not all down to parenting.

that was just a general response to OP BTW.