To divide up the garden we share with the neighbours?

[notanumber]

We live in the downstairs flat of a maisonette and the garden is shared with the flat above us.

The garden isn't a bad size and the arrangement is that we have one side and the neigbours have the other. There is a long washing line straight down the middle which indicates the 'boundry' and we use half of that each.

We would really prefer a bit more privacy than the current arrangement. They are not neighbors from hell or anything, we would just like to be able to eat lunch in the garden in the summer for example, without being interrupted by the neighbours popping out to hang out their smalls!

We'd really like to remove the washing line and replace it with a fence, putting umbrella style folding washing lines on each side (obviously we would pay for all of the costs).

Obviously it's a bit of a tricky one. We don't want to offend the neighbours, and we see that it could easily be interpreted as a big "fuck off, we hate you and don't want to talk to you" gesture, which it really honestly isn't. We just want the (relative) privacy of having our own outdoor space.

We've thought quite hard about whether such an arrangement would inconvenience the neighbours, but we really don't think it will. While they do peg out their washing, they never use the garden otherwise,(to sit out in or whatever), and so the fence wouldn't impact on them at all in terms of shade or space. The only thing we can forsee being a problem is that they might think we're being really rude.

We own the property and the neighbours are tennants - I don't know if that makes a difference? It would perhaps be easier to come to an agreement about a fence if they owned their flat, and I presume their landlord would have to be consulted?

So, would it be really "off" of us to go ahead with this plan? Clearly we'd discuss it with the neighbours but wanted to canvass opinions from impartial people before broaching the subject!

Am fully prepared to be told I am BU, but would be grateful if people could avoid comments along the lines of, "well you should live in a big detatched house if you want privacy you moaning cow". If we could afford to live in a mansion with our own grounds then that is what we'd be doing, but we live where we live and are just trying to think of ways we could make it a bit more pleasant and private.

I think it's fine but you probably need to speak to whoever owns the house to find out if it's ok. The out of politeness of course ok it with the people who live there.

Or maybe do it the other way round - "would you mind if I approached the landlord about doing this/would you have any objections?"

I am not going to lecture you but you may want to get someone to look at this legally for you.

The washing line may be an informal attempt at privacy but the garden may have to be shared use rather than divided as territory IYSWIM.
It may not be allowed. You should check before you potentially piss them off and then find you can't do it anyway

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all, I would just chat to them about it and I'm sure they'll be fine. Sell it as a good idea for both parties, having the territory split so to speak. Do you have kids? You could say it was to help keep them on your side of the garden!

just read that and 'I am not going to lecture you' reads as if I would like to but won't...
All I mean is that your OP said people may shout at you and I don't think you are being rude or mean

You need to talk to their landlord and get his consent. I am not sure whether you need to go the whole hog and get deed and boundaries amended or something or whether you can just agree to organise it this way. Do you have share of freehold for the garden?

It would do no harm to make sure the tenants upstairs are happy with it but it isn't their call.

I don't think it is unreasonable at all (couple of big houses in our street have done similar) but it kind of depends if it would impede their access - ie does it divide the garden lengthways or widthways?

I woudl go for screening off an area for you to use to eat in , maybe with plants or low fence/trellis above

You need to establish what the rights and obligations are within your deeds.

Also you would need to include a clause as to maintenance.

I would have thought they would appreciate more privacy too.But you will have to check the deeds as other have said and liise with the other owner.It seems strange that the gardens are not divided already ?Where is the access to the garden from ?

My mum shares a very large garden and its really tricky.

The typical arrangement where a garden is shared is there is a right for your neighbour to pass on your bit and vica versa. But often neither of you can permanently own shared bits and nothing can be constructed on it - like a fence.

Thanks for the responses.

In answer to your questions:

• The tenants are council tenants (or they used to be, the flats have been taken over by a private company). The landlords are pretty hands-off, from what the tenants have said to us. To be honest, as long as the tenants don't complain to them about us putting up a fence,I don't think they would care one way or the other whether we errected a fence or a scale model of the Taj Mahal in the back garden.

• A fence would not impede their access at all as would be dividing it lengthways (much as the current washing line arrangement does).

• Access to the garden is via a shared passageway at the side (which we would not be attempting to change at all. I don't know why they wre not divided originally - cost? - they are 130 years old so maybe the privacy was less important in the past?

Who owns the freehold?

The freehold is owned by the private company who bought it from the council, I think.

Doesn't matter whether the tenants reckon they are hands off. You are talking about making a change to your jointly owned property. If landlords decided they didn't like it they could reasonably expect you to take it it all down again which would be a pain. Of course, so long as the tenants are happy they might never find out, so you might be prepared to risk it.

I suppose if your neighbours agree, the worst that can happen is that you would have to take the fence down if found out or if your neighbours move.

do you pay ground rent to the freeholder? Are you freeholders or leaseholders?

To be honest (I know this sounds awful) we are thinking of doing it without talking to the freeholders as that would potentially be a long and fuitless process with lots of expensive legal wranglings.

If the freeholders did demand that we remove it we would of course do so at once and without question. But as I say, it does seem as though they couldn't give a monkeys what we do in the garden as long as no-one is complaining.

That being the case, we are sort of thinking that we'd rather just put a fence up (if the neighbours have no objection - they've lived there for decades so we are unlikely to get new neighbours anytime soon) and not have to deal with any legal or financial hassles.

Our major concern is not the legal side of it (if we put it up illegally and this was 'discovered' them we would just have to suck it up and deal with the consequences) more whether it is a 'mean' thing to do. Whether if we broached it the neighbours would be really really upset and offended.

Yes, we pay ground rent. We are leaseholders. The freeholders own the upstairs flat.

I think the only real way of knowing that is to ask them and (no offence) since you're already coming across as having huge guilt issues about not upsetting them etc., I'm pretty sure they would be forgiving IYSWIM.

The only thing I would say is make sure you have the conversation with them face to face rather than leave a note or something, that's the best way to avoid any misunderstandings about intentions.

Hope it works out.

Who mows the grass and tends the garden at the moment? Do you do half each up to the washing line?

Just thinking if you do all the maintenance to the garden and your neighbours dont use it, they might not want to start maintaining it once it has been split by a fence.

I would advise just screening off part of it as previously suggested. Enough room to sit and eat, and so on.

Trellis is quite cheap and if you do have to remove it, it wont be such a pain.

Good luck, though I know how you feel on this one!

Yes, you're right bluecheesefiend in that we need to ask them, but I wanted to check that we haven't been blindsided by our own wants and would be asking them something completely unreasonable and out of order!

Part of our hesitaion is that no other flats in the terrace have divided their gardens and we are concerned that by doing it we will be breaching some kind of community "rule" about neighborliness and friendliness! It's a very stable and established community - while some of the flats are owner occupied, the vast majority are council (now private company) owned and the tenants have lived there for forty or fifty years.

However, as the MN consensus mostly seems to be that we are not BU then I guess we'll just have to go ahread and ask them.

We do all the garden maintenance. We'd be very happy to continue to mow their side though - they are quite elderly and we wouldn't feel right about forcing them to push a lawnmower around!

Also if other gardens are not split, someone else might report you.

Go ahead and ask, i know i would welcome a bit of privacy. Just try not to spend too much money if they do agree, just in case. Good luck.

think about shade too

a fence may shade your side or shade the other side.
In my old flat the gardens at the back were all open plan and everybody liked it that way.
It was very sociable in the summer, impromtu parties and bbqs etc and kids and dogs running around.
Then this new couple moved in and built what was referred to as the Berlin Wall right down the middle.
They were within their rights but it pissed off everyone else.
But it also made their long thin bit of garden really shady which we all laughed about as we sat in the sun!