AIBU to think it is a good idea for people to learn a 2nd/3rd language at school?

[SerenityNowakaBleh]

Kind of sparked by one of them comments on this article (Helena) who said that "modern languages are a huge waste of time for a lot of children(and adults)(it's the least important subject on the curriculum!).".

AIBU to think that's a bit wrong? I had to learn possibly one of the most useless languages in the world at school, from the age of 6, but learning another language (no matter how useless) did kind of help lay the foundations for other languages. I personally feel that most children, most people would benefit from learning a second language. It gives you a very different perspective on the world, gives you some insight into how other cultures think, and broadens your options?

I am biased, as I am an enthusiastic (though rather rubbish) fan of learning languages, and have seen how it has enriched my life (like being able to translate Communist Baddies in rubbish movies from the 80s from Russian).

Learning languages can never be wrong and the locals appreciate the effort, at least that's the case in Bavaria. It amazes me how many Germans thank me for bothering to learn their language.

To be absolutely honest, i really don't see the point of teaching a foreign language to english speaking primary school kids. For the rest of the world, it's a different matter, we HAVE to speak english, so the sooner oyu start the better, really.

You don't really need any other language, and primary school should be all about learning the essential basics. You can pick up languages later on, if you so wish and are inclined.

As an aside (and I am probably going to be flamed for this on MN), as a foreigner I am often shocked at the poor spelling and bad grammar of many native speakers- what's the point of knowing how to say "bonjour je m'appelle Mrs Smith" when you can't spell in your own language?

I speak three languages fluently plus a smattering of a couple more, but it's all been because I had to learn them, my mother tongue being kind of useless outside of my own country. I can't say it's made me any smarter in other respects.

yanbu. agree with MIFLAW that learning foreign languages can also be beneficial to those struggling with education; my DS has a language delay, but has still really enjoyed learning some basic Spanish at his infant school.

oh and it is incredibly hard to learn european languages without a sound understanding of grammar and synthax, something that I understand is not taught in English schools. It would be far better imo to give children that grounding during the early years, and actually give them a chance to learn languages properly later on.

Marking place

Oi, Buch, get your arse off the fence

"oh and it is incredibly hard to learn european languages without a sound understanding of grammar and synthax" - I disagree. It is how they are taught that creates this problem. Most children of all nationalities have an excellent grasp of the syntax and grammar of their own languages (not in the sense that they can describe it, but in the sense that they do not make mistakes with it in day to day usage) before they set foot in a school.

There was, incidentally, a British Council report a few years back pointing out that the internationalisation of English actually DISadvantaged native speakers of English - as foreign workers come to have excellent English, plus their own language, plus a less "essential" foreign language in many cases, how can the monolingual speaker fo English compete in the world marketplace?

MIFLAW: "as foreign workers come to have excellent English, plus their own language, plus a less "essential" foreign language in many cases" So very true. And most of the time they can speak 'actual and proper' English better than native speakers can!

I agree learning languages at school is important, I learnt French to GCSE level and really wish I'd learnt more.

re the first part of your post- having had the experience of trying to learn German in London, I can guarantee you it is almost impossible to learn it "conversationally". Sure you can pick up words but for such a complex language you really need to know what subject, verb, adverb, gender, etc etc are. Most people in my beginners class could not really grasp even the basics of the language because they were unable to recognise the key elements of synthax in English, let alone in German! paradoxically the only one who "got" it was a guy in his 70s who had studied latin at school.

and in the world's marketplace you only really need English. Increasingly you can work anywhere in the world by speaking only english. I have never really needed to speak my mother tongue since leaving my country 10 years ago, and it has not given me many advantages professionally.

To be clear- I am not saying learning a foreign language is useless, i am just saying that it would be better to concentrate on the "essentials" early on...

Sorry if I am repeating, I read the thread very quickly.

First of all, it seems that English primary schools are once again beginning to teach grammar to children, they do at my ds' school, a "scary inner city primary". They also teach french from nursery to yehar 6. I was shocked to see how many words ds and his friends know in french, they can say their name, describe the weather anso on. I want to add this a school that also teaches gardening, making necklaces, yoga, cooking, making art using only food, so yes, a bit bonkers, not exactly a scarily precious school. I would not be happy if the teaching of a foreign language took away from doing the more crazy stuff!
Ciao MM and Buch!

tommy: I want my future kids to go to that school! That's the sort of thing I'd love my kids to be doing, fun learning

i agree, plus you can spend summers and gap years away and be able to converse and integrate. I speak French, Italian and a bit of Spanish and am so glad I can.

I HATE the way the brits never try and learn another language so ignorant.

plus it opens the doorway to new possibilities

Foreign languages are probably one of the most important parts of the curriculum, as language learning is in itself a skills set (like reading and writing and mathematics).

and the best time to start teaching them is KS1. Kids are like a sponge for languages when they are young, so no wonder they struggle starting in Year 8 or 9 as they do in some schools.

The only reason I know of people saying languages are a waste of time is because they found it hard themself so gave up. It's extremely ignorant to say that "everyone speaks english". There are whole countries where people speak no English

I went to Albania as a volunteer a few years ago. Most people spoke not a word of English. I had to learn some Albanian very quickly. Luckily I was able to do this, having studied french latin and spanish at school...

Hoiking arse quickly off fence....

I think a 2nd or 3rd foreign language is important, not necessarily for the ability to communicate abroad, because as has been said, even with an A level in MFL, without a period of full insertion of the type that comes with a degree, you are still going to remain fairly elementary (especially if you haven't been taught by a native speaker) but for the "affective" effect. So many young British people are displaying the old football-hooligan-dirty-foreigner tendencies (you only have to look at the "British jobs or British workers" shite across FB)to see how introspective and provincial people can be.....a foreign language, taught in conjunction with some cultural elements, would go some way to eradicating that kind of attitude. Hopefully.

As far as the deplorable quality of native speakers' own use of English goes....while we continue to bask in the entitlement-culture-PFB-can't-ever-be-told-they're-wrong mentality of education, then unfortunately, that's not going to improve any time soon. Criticism can be constructive. I wouldn't want to go round all my life writing "should of" and having people laugh at me. But that's me.

There is a well-known joke:

"What do you call someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual

What do you call someone who speaks more than two languages? Multilingual.

What do you call someone who only speaks one language? British."

It just about sums it up really.

Picking up words and vocabulary in a foreign language is extrmely easy once you are immersed in the environment for a few days. Learning a language- the structure, the grammar, the inflections etc- is a much more complex affair that can take years of study and immersion, and may never be completely achieved.

However- forgetting words and vocabulary is just as easy and I remain unconvinced that learning a few pleasantries of French or Spanish at age 7 can really confer any meaningful advantage in the long term, either from a professional or brain development point of view.

It would make much more sense, imo, to teach english-speaking children Latin, so they are exposed to a complex grammatical structure that underpins the majority of European languages (sorry- I know nothing about non-European languages) and would therefore make it easier in the future (eg at secondary level or as adults) to learn foreign languages (as well as deepen the understanding of the English language).

Incidentally, learning English (especially at a basic or specialised-eg business- level) is immensurably easier than learning any other language (although apparently Hebrew is quite easy too), so do not overestimate the aptitude or willingness of most foreigners!

Having said that I am not a linguist, although I love language, so who knows I may have it completely wrong...

For little children picking up words from a foreign language is easy, I can tell from ds and his friends. The other day they were trying to make up filthy jokes in french...

Mm,even if as you say learning a few words, songs, games in a foreign language might not do anything to the brain of children or to their long term interest in foreign languages, who cares, they have fun, they laugh, ds had a concert that was partly in french, primary school is meant to give you pleasure, make you laugh, make you curious, etc..come on! Fun and pleasure is probably better for the brain development than anything else, anyway.

agree Tommy, but that's a totally different story! I am all for fun learning. I am just not convinced French is going to be that useful for their future, unless they want to move to Geneva, and let's face it, why would anyone want to do that?

We were taught oral French (phonetically) at school at the age of 8. I found out recently that this was an experiment- I don't know whether it was continued or for how long. That French has stuck and I still remember it, and being taught only phonetically meant there was none of that embarrassment when you can't pronounce it properly.

I did French for O level, and most of that is long gone.

We put DS2 in a French speaking nursery for one day a week when he was 4. He picked it up very quickly but couldn't swap between the two. Once he went to school we couldn't keep it up and he lost it

But I don't agree that languages should be compulsory up to GCSE/A level. They were until recently and in the school where I was a TA it was a disaster. They started off well in Y7 doing oral conversational French, which went down well. Then they introduced writing- spelling and grammar. The children in the bottom sets could barely cope with English. There was no way they could manage French, and they promptly switched off.

If you could keep it oral, and do away with the writing for the lower ability pupils, then perhaps it would work. But far better to start at 7 and make it a game.

If i had my way I would bring back compulsory Latin, as well as a modern language. My Latin has been incredibly useful! The ancient Greek not so much.

Languages are vital, not just for the language element but for culture and understanding. Exposure to languages at school increases the facility with which one can pick up languages later on. If I hadn't studied languages at school I doubt I'd be able to speak any other languages now because a) I wouldn't have had the courage to leave England bravely armed with my GCSE or b) been able to spot common trends in language. As it is I speak 2 relatively fluently and can get by in half a dozen more. I credit the Latin with this, by the way, and maybe the German.

Masseuse, as much as I love Latin, I don't think it is possible to teach it at primary level, as it requires (again ) a deep knowledge of grammar, the structure of the sentence etc etc.
Ds, who only spent 1 yr at school in the UK, loved doing French there. And he likes doing English at school here in Italy too, but I suppose it's because he knows more than the teacher

I'm not by any means saying school will make you fluent, btw, but at least hearing the sounds and learning the building blocks of a language gives you something you grasp later if you find yourself flung headlong!