to consider not immunizing ds against swine 'flu?

[deliakate]

And can we do a poll - who is and who isn't and what are the ages of your dcs?

PapaCass - even though we are on different sides of the argument, I actually think that's quite a fair assessment.

I think it takes a brave parent (and I mean brave, I'm not being funny) to go against the flow and resist the pressure to conform. I guess this also comes down to personal and family experience - I think I said earlier that I have an aunt who is deaf following diptheria which she caught as a child, so I am very nervous of exposing DS to the risks of these diseases. Logically I know he would probably be just fine, because most other people do vaccinate, but I also know that if everyone took that view then that safety net would go out of the window in a pretty short space of time. And of course we are not just talking about healthy children catching something and recovering. We are talking about protecting the vulnerable - the immune compromised, pregnant women, children who really can't be vaccinated, etc. etc.

I can't and try not to judge people on their individual choices, but it is refreshing to see the benefits of herd immunity at least acknowledged.

Just saw your later post PapaCass. Ethyl mercury, unliked methyl mercury, doesn't accumulate in the body, that's the point here. And we really are talking about minute quantities in comparison to the toxins we all absorb from the environment every day. I really do think the thiomersal content is a fairly minor consideration. There are risks to every vaccination - that's acknowledged by everyone. I don't think the 5 micrograms of thiomersal in this particular one equates to a significant increase in that risk.

Let's not forget that there are toxins in every single medicine that we take, or that we give to our children. And almost everything is toxic if taken in sufficient quantities.

Yes HappySeven, my sister and I both had it so we didn't need the vaccine. My mum has all our vaccine records... Measled was still fairly common in 1980s - there were nearly 148,000 cases.

RE herd immunity - outbreaks have occured where there is 100% vaccination rate so I'm really not convinced that those who don't vaccinate are getting a free ride - I think the percentage vaccinated dropped to 83% as well so thats well below the 'herd immunity' level of 95%.

Sorry - this has gone way off the point of the original OP!

148,000 cases in 1980

RE thiomersal - We don't tend to inject all those other everyday toxins directly into our bloodstream so I'm not really convinced by that argument (not that you have to convince me! ) It was removed from childhood vaccines for a reason and there were plenty of vaccine damage awards made because of it.

Point taken about ethyl/methyl gaelicsheep. My fear of mercury remains though it may be irrational. Very informative talking to y'all. Now where can I moan about state enforced attendance rates at primary school...

Herd immunity for measles is somewhere between 83 and 94% and it was in the 80s that was when my nephew contracted it and was left deaf.

I eat tuna which contains mercury which in turn passes into my bloodstream but I believe in everything in moderation and anything in excess could be considered toxic.

I'm not sure we'll ever convince eachother but I guess that's what makes the world an interesting place - would be boring if we were all the same!

As far as personal recollections go: I knew a family, neighbours of my aunt, where a six year old child used to cry terribly day and night. It transpired that a year before he had had his third DTP jab and within 7 days had suffered a severe reaction. It seemed clear to the family that it was a result of the vaccination but because it was 12 hours outside the time when reaction to a vaccination is deemed possible the doctors refused to acknowledge or report it. They then proceeded the to medicate the child so heavily with antibiotics and steroidal asthma drugs that his younger brother by two years outgrew him. His life was utter misery and his parents were desperate. I put them in touch with a homeopath and he made a full recovery.

H7 Don't worry, I long ago gave up trying to change people's minds, but it nice to be listened to...

made appointment for DD(3) after getting invite letter from GP, dithered, then cancelled, I'm still dithering. I really admire everyone who has made a definate decision either way - arrgghh this parenting lark is bloody hard!MIL is a homeopath & has bombarded me with leaflets, books, etc...
I will make a decision!...
after a bit more fence sitting

Ds has an appt for 10.10 today and I'm still unsure.

Can someone tell me, if he has it today, will he have to have it again next winter..and the winter after..? Or is this it?

AddictedToCrunchies - DS has his appointment at the self same time - about now in fact. DH has taken him. I quizzed the surgery again and they were still strongly recommending it, so we've given in.

I really don't know if they're going to need these each year - I do hope not - but I think it will probably all get mixed in with the other flu viruses in the end.

Me, DH, DD (7) and DD (3) had it last week. Didn't feel it going in. All had sore arm for 3 days after (although youngest didn't complain). None of us felt ill/fluey.

DH is immunosuppressed right now so we're not prepared to take the risk of him getting it and ending up seriously ill. Already got that worry.

I thought the Swine Flu was all a false alarm? Not a pandemic at all - just a bad flu hyped up massively by media and drugs company who have profited enormously from government contracts. Seems the worlds governments have been in a damned if you do, damned if you don't re ordering tamiflu/vaccines etc.

I won't be getting jab, and don't see any reason for DD aged 27 months, to have it either.

I spoke to the nurse and she told me that she would have her kids done (they're gorwn up now) without a shadow of a doubt. That swung me although I was fairly sure anyway.

He cried briefly and I gave him his dummy. Brought him home and gave him some Calpol and he's now asleep after playing happily.

My dd had it done at 10 months old.

I agree with Gladders: "YABU - if you don't have faith in this then you don't have faith in the health service IMO. For each child not immunised, the greater the risk for the wider population."

NB, my GP told me the vaccine will last for 12 months, so if Swine Flu continues to be around, it'll need to be done annually so long as your dc is at risk.

However, perhaps if everyone vaccinated their children and selves, Swine Flu will not be around next year!

Lots of folk here seem to have a desire for impartial information and it is not easy to come by, lots of dogma on both sides. In my view it is our responsibility as parents to research the issue and not rely on the health service which caters to the lowest common denominator and does not like to be questioned. I did all my reading before the internet and before DD, and it stood me in good stead. Must be alot out there on the net (in amongst the misinformation).

If you are not going to vaccinate you should be actively involved in ensuring your child is healthy and happy to the best of your ability which will involve lots of hard work and an amount of cash, and not exposed unnecessarily to disease or toxicity: don't take the little bugger to india for example, it is asking a lot of a developing immune system. Sounds woffley because it is not easy to encapsulate holism in a blogpost, and that is what is required to give em the best.

Personally I think it is ridiculous to innoculate for every virus that rears its head, you will be constantly on the back foot and compromising the overall strength of the immune system. Surely it is better to boost the immune system to the point where it can survive your average nasty infectious disease. To put it glibly (and a little inaccurately): said diseases kill or permanently impair a small minority of those with the weakest immune systems, so aim for your children to have a better than average immune system. That should stand you in good stead, we are not talking about the black death this time around!

We all had it our house ME, DH, DS1 AGE 7, DS2 AGE 5 and DS3 age 2. No side effects other than a sore arm for a couple of days!

I am thick. I must be, I still don't know and I should.

So the jab may cause damage and the 'flu might too. Balanced then.

Until I give him the jab. Logically that will open up a definite risk as opposed to getting swine flu because there is no definite that he'll get that. He will definitely be exposed to the vaccine if he has it and the risks.

The other thing is, DS may well have had this strain last summer - but I don't know because no doctor would see him due to the panic. Someone reading from a script prescribed Tamiflu which we didn't give him. He got better.

I feel very sorry for the parents of children who had meningitis and other illnesses which were missed because of this ridiculous policy of doctors not seeing children with flu-like symptoms. I wonder what the collateral damage was.

I'm really surprised people are still vaxing. The case numbers have fallen, we know that most people who catch swine flu will not have any serious complication, many won't even show symptoms and it is MUCH less severe than seasonal flu. If you don;t normally vaccinate against flu - why are you vaccinating now? Swine flu is this year's seasonal flu - if it wasn't for all the headlines would you really be worried about catching the flu?

There we have it: if they are ok within two weeks then you made it to other side of the river and there has been no damage, phew.

This is not necessarily the case. There is a large literature of long term damage and chronic disease resulting from vaccination.

There are analogies in the class of things that dont always do short term damage but sometimes do long term damage, eg: radiation, hepatitis C.

I do think 1 shot in a healthy child over 5 is a world away from the dozens of vaccines received by some American school children at an early age. Those happily jabbing away year in and year out are cooking up long term health problems, including mental illness.

Milady, your analysis of the basic facts is good, so you are not thick. If you are not lazy, do further research. I believe a lot can be done to both naturally protect against contracting illness and massively improving outcomes when they are contracted.

The whole government / medical establishment is geared towards unhappy kids in childcare since they were 3 mos and with crap nutrition, if this does not apply to you and yours then research the alternatives to what they offer.

There is mounting evidence that, by artificially stimulating the body's immune system, a barrage of vaccines can actually promote auto-immune disorders such as multiple sclerosis in susceptible people. Furthermore, some vaccines contain toxic metals such as aluminium and mercury. The fact is that the human body is a finely balanced eco-system, which overzealous vaccination can upset.

What this all means is that we have to be more careful about vaccines. Colluding with the pharmaceutical giants, the Government has become far too cavalier about their use, promoting them as a risk-free solution to all sorts of medical conditions, no matter how low the incidence.

It has been madness, for example, to talk of vaccinating the entire population against swine flu, when the number of deaths from this illness is tiny compared to the annual toll for ordinary flu.

Vaccines cannot be used to build some medically controlled utopia, in which all disease has been banished. Indeed, the attempt to do may end up undermining the health of future generations.

● Dr Richard Halvorsen is author of The Truth About Vaccines, published
by Gibson Square

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217057/Dr-Richard-Halvorsen-Im-opposed-jabs-worries.html#ix zz0eWLUkD3y

I'm sorry, I had kind of backed off but I have to take issue with the Daily Mail article you recommend, Papacass.

Richard Halvorsen uses Natalie Morton as an example of vaccination going wrong. Natalie Morton died of an undetected cancer that had nothing to do with the vaccine and her death happened to coincide with the vaccination. The results of the post mortem were released the day after the article.

Papacass you have lost any credibility you may have had by quoting a DailyMail article relating to the death of a child which was categorically proven to be COMPLETELY unrelated to the vaccine. Or are the results of her post mortem all part of a huge conspiracy as well ?

I have two children young enough for this and I have not heard anything do I need to arrange it or do they call or send a letter like with the other jabs??