...to want to put DS, 2.11 years, on Ebay?

[CrapSuzette]

Sorry... this is rather long!
I really need support/advice from parents who have been through - or are going through - the terrible twos with a 'spirited' toddler.
DS is one of twins - I also have a daughter, who is relatively easy-going. Can be a madam at times - can't they all - but she's generally a happy, positive child who rarely needs time outs. DS is a different story. He was a happy baby (a bit intense at times - the whole street knew if I was a nanosecond late with a feed), but things started to change at 9 months, once he was able to stand. He started having enormous tantrums which escalated until he started to walk. Things calmed down for a while, then razzed up again at 18 months. And they've been getting worse ever since.
Up until the age of two, his tantrums were legendary. I've had people say they've never seen anything like them. Screaming until he went purple - sometimes up to an hour or so. I'd do the usual staying close by - not pandering to him, but saying: 'I'm here for a cuddle when you've finished,' or putting him into his cot if he was in danger of hurting himself or his sister. I often wondered if his tantrums were so bad because he was a twin, and having to compromise before he was developmentally ready. But I never gave into them and (usually!) managed to stay calm.
The tantrums eased once he was able to understand the REASON for my saying 'no' to certain things, but around 2yrs 3 months, his behaviour started to deteriorate again. The tantrums aren't as great, but he is negative beyond belief (says 'no' to anything - and yes, I try choices, distraction... if anything, these make him angrier). He goes through very aggressive phases - biting, hiting and pinching (only me and his sister). I deal with these firmly and calmly, with a time out until he says sorry - which he usually does after about 10 minutes of shouting 'no' at me. He whines. Constantly. Last month, he woke up 2-3 times every night to shout 'no' at me - I'd get a plaintive 'Mummy...' escalating; I'd go in after a few minutes, then get shouted at or have a cuddly toy or his cup chucked at me in anger. I can't tell you how delightful it was doing a 'time out' in his pushchair in the front room at 3am after one of his missiles hit his sleeping sister (he'd aimed it deliberately).
He argues over everything. He argues that daytime is nightime; that it isn't raining when it plainly is; that it isn't dinner time when it is. He refuses to get out of the bath and we usually have a kicking/screaming fit when I finally prise him out of it. He chucks his breakfast on the floor if it isn't what he wants. He's just tried to push me off the loo and screamed at me because I wouldn't put the trainer seat on it (with the size of my arse??? Was he having a laugh?) and then, when he used it just now, deliberately aimed out of the loo and over the floor - glaring at me as he did it.
My DH is hugely supportive. We are both anti-smacking, and both consistently use time-outs, ignorning and loss of privileges (eg, taking away a toy that's been used to hit) as our discipline methods. When DS is being lovely, which used to be 80% of the time but over the last 2/3 months is only about 20% of the time, he gets loads of cuddles and love (although he currently gets furious with DH if he even dares suggest a kiss goodnight. Fair enough - he's learning about personal boundaries. But I just wish he wouldn't go about it in such a rude, red-faced, aggressive way).
We give him and his sister plenty of attention, and try to be equal as much as possible. A lot of the time, they play nicely together. But then out of the blue he'll do something awful. eg, on Saturday, he was playing under the pushchair while DD was playing with her doll's house in the corner of the room. I turned my back for a minute to answer the door, and came back to find DD in floods of tears saying her brother had bitten her (DS was still under the pushchair). I checked her knee, and on her trouser leg was a clear, wet bite mark. DS grinned at me and denied all knowledge, though it was obvious he'd sneaked out from under the chair when my back was turned, bitten her with no provocation, and gone back to where he was. He was laughing as he told me 'It was an accident'. I was furious - and horrified - because it seemed so sneaky and was a new behaviour (in the past, his aggression has been in an angry moment). I gave him a time-out, but practically had to sit on my hands to stop myself from smacking him. I don't want to, I know it's wrong, yet I feel that all my other methods of discipline aren't working one bit.
So please fellow mumsnetters... keep me sane and on the straight and narrow. Any advice? Any reassurance? I keep hearing that three is even worse (they turn three next month) and if it is, I'll seriously consider sticking a fork in my brain.
One other thing: he and his sister go to nursery three days a week and have since they were one year old . He has always loved it there, and behaves much better there than with me (surprise surprise). Though his key worker has commented a few times recently about his negativity and the fact that he has started moaning a lot. He is never aggressive with the other children, and has recently made a couple of strong friendships with two other boys in the group. Even so, he's been negative about going in the mornings for the last three months or so, and will argue with me that it's 'not a nursery day today' (he has also screamed blue murder all the way home from nursery demanding to be taken back. So I can't win either way).
Sorry this is so long and rambling. Thanks for reading and bearing with me...
...Oh, and just to add. He's very verbal, fiercly independent, very active and nursery describe him as a 'deep thinker' (whatever that means). He can also be extremely funny, kind and sensitive - I just wish I saw more of that side of him theses days

Hi,
I'm afraid I don't have any very constructive advice, but just don't want you to go unanswered!
I do however have some experience, my nephew was exactly as you are describing your DS, it was more than just a strop, he seemed to be really angry about everything and no matter what my poor sister did it just seemed to get worse. When she was at the end of her tether, she went to see his headteacher, she was in tears and begging for some kind of help, and the headteacher reffered him for behavioural therapy. It has since been discovered he has learning difficulties, he has dispraxia and mild autism. I am not by any means suggesting that these are what your son has, I am not suggesting that at all. I just mean that if you feel it's not your average toddler strops, maybe take him for observation, as there may be a reason for his behaviour that isn't obvious?
Either way, you sound like your doing a fabulous job, and I'm glad that you have a good supportive husband. Good luck with it all.

your son sounds like mine! Mine is now three and is improving alk the time. We stole an idea from my daughters school which helped alot. we have three coloured circles on the wall like traffuc light. Each child has a photo of their face on the green light. They get a warning but if they still misbehave they go onto the orange light, if they misbehave again its red light. Red light means sitting on the stairs. Red light three times in a day and they get sent to their rooms.

Not sure I have much advice to offer but wanted to say that my DS1 sounds exactly the same. He is now 3.11 and things are much better than they were. Like your DS though, he used to have full blown major MAJOR tantrums to the point that he would literally pass out from screaming so much. He was practically excluded from nursery for his violent behaviour (biting and kicking other children and staff).
We had his behaviour assessed by a SENCO (special educational needs officer) who said there was nothing wrong with him other than being highly strung, intelligent and under challenged. Shamefully, I was disappointed with this. I wanted there to be an ANSWER, a REASON, a SOLUTION!!

However, we have come to the conclusion that it is just his personality. Apparently I was exactly the same as a child and admit to having the tendency to be somewhat high maintenance and challenging as an adult .
On the whole, DS1 is now 90% improved on how he was at your DS' age. That's not to say that we don't still have problems with him, we do. He often reduces me to tears with his behaviour but the frequency of this has dropped off from once or twice a day to maybe once a fortnight. It has been slow progress and, of course, it has been 3 steps forward, 2 steps back. The key to improvement for us has been consistency, praise (and loads of it) for positive behaviour, maintaining control, ensuring he has enough sleep (absolute meltdown occurs when he is overtired) and sticking to a routine as far as possible.
There is no magic wand but when I look back now I am so relieved that I didn't hand him over to social services on those occasions when I'd wanted to do nothing but that!
Good luck!

YANBU, i would do the same as my DD isnt half as bad, but she was very well behaved till she turned 2 abd now i just cant deal with the screaming! i wish i could put her on ebay myself!

Bit of a long Ebay listing...

I've only got one ds - so don't have the sibling issue to add to the fun. However, we have the odd session of unhelpful behaviour - refusing to put coat/shoes on, etc etc etc... We deal with it like this. If he decides that he doesn't want the rest of his breakfast, he is warned that it will mean no food until lunchtime - including no snack - and if he continues to say he doesn't want it, its taken away with no fuss. If he decides that he doesn't like/want supper he is told that if he eats x amount/type of food/mouthfulls he can have pudding, if not he doesn't have to have it but goes without pudding with no fuss from us. If he decides he doesn't want his coat on, we continue getting ready to go out, and say come on then - you're going to get cold (with a smile ) and take him out without his coat (usually its under our arm and he has put it on by the time he gets out of the door). When (ages ago now) he took his shoes off on the way home when he'd been asked to leave them on (5mins max) I calmly took his socks off and said that I didn't want his socks getting wet, and he had to walk from the car to the house (he normally is quite happy dashing out with no shoes and socks (in the summer) but you'd have thought that he was walking over hot coals that night the fuss he made , but he never did it again ).

With the biting, as he'd purposefully done that, I would treat that seriously and put him in his room on his own (Make sure its safe first).

Hopefully some of this will be to do with not being able to express himself properly yet and the tantrums at least will reduce.

Good luck!

Poor you! well you sound like you're doing a great job under the circumstances. If you really feel that his behaviour is out of the ordinary, it would be worth following TootsieSmith's advice... my nephew has mild asperger's and growing up his behaviour could be very difficult, but i really would have thought that the nursery would have spoken to you about it if they felt that he was developmentally different. Basically, if it was me and i had the money, i'd see someone that could help me understand his behaviour, a child psychologist or behavioural therapist. It would be good to be reassured that there is nothing more to it than bad behaviour.

On the other hand, if it is just wilfulness on his part (much more likely!) it is possible he will grow out of it. My DS (3) says no to everything and i try and go with it rather than challenge it. If i say 'it's snowing!' and he tells me it isn't, i might say, Wow, i wonder what all that white stuff is then, if it's not snowing blah blah blah... he either gets bored and ignores me, or he engages with it and makes loads of stuff up, which i quite like as it can be really funny. It's more difficult with stuff like getting out of the bath or sitting down for dinner. My friend gave me some advice on this, she said sometimes let them win. So if he says he doesn't want to get out of the bath, or put his coat on in the snow, just go with it. Eventually he'll get out of the bath/put his coat on or whatever. Doing this has definitely helped me - it doesn't change his behaviour but it makes me less stressed.

the punching/kicking/biting stuff is trickier and i don't know what to say to that really. i would have thought the best thing would be to say if you can't be nice you have to go and play on your own in your room and you can come back when you're ready to be nice to everyone... time out doesn't really work for me, i think it just makes them angry.

With DS if he is screaming and kicking off, i tell him i don't mind he making all that noise if he really has to, but i don't want to hear it so to go and do it in his room and to come back when he can be calm... if necessary i will carry him in there.

Good luck, this age can be SO trying!

Will be back to read entire post later. But go for it. I'll buy him, and he can come over and keep my "spirited" DS busy for a bit. Then I'm shipping them both to you!

Thank you all so much! Tootsie - funnily enough, I'd wondered if he was somewhere on the Aspergers spectrum. He doesn't match many of the characteristics - eg, he's very verbal and sociable - BUT he struggles with transitions and likes things 'just so' (I know all toddlers do, but he finds it harder than most). Mindcontrol - thank you! I it's good to know that he SHOULD grow out of it. I do wonder how much of DS's behaviour has to do with boredom - the lousy weather hasn't helped, as we haven't been able to get out and about as much as usual.
Cheerful yank - think I'll pass on your offer but good to know there's someone else out there in the same boat (though not good for you, obv).
Everyone else - thanks for taking the time to reply.

Just read entire post. Oh, honey. You're having a rough time of it, aren't you? You sound like you're doing a fantastic job, and your DC are lucky to have you.

My brother (who is 30 now) is and has always been much like this. (Obviously it's been a few decades since he screamed himself purple...) I think some people's basic personality is just a little more...antagonistic? I think you should keep on as you're doing. Fernie's idea with the traffic lights is a good one; it's taken from the book 1,2,3,Magic!, which I use with my DS. (Basically for more "mild" behavior, like spitting, screaming, whining,etc., you say "That's one. No whining." If they continue, "That's 2", and if they still don't stop, "That's 3. Time out." You don't get angry or engage them, and for a more serious offense-hitting, biting- you say, "Straight to 3. Time out." The traffic lights just help them keep track.)

You might want to seek some help as others have suggested. Best of luck to you and you are doing a wonderful job.

CheerfulYank - Spiting is "mild" behaviour??? If my dd spat I'd be horrified. Whining and whinging are mild behaviour, spiting is bloody disgusting!

I feel so much for you. It's so hard, so stressful and the pressure on your family life is very tough. It's amazing how much a little person can affect the whole family like this.

My ds (aged 4 and a half) was like this from 22 months until just recently. Everything was a reason to shout and scream about. He's mostly better now. I just put him gently onto his bed until he calms down. He would rage and tantrum over absolutely everything. It was thoroughly unpleasant to live with. Upsetting, exhausting and very frightening at times. My relatives would be amazed at his behaviour.

Like you, for a loooong time, nothing seemed to work to change his behaviour. I completely empathise with what you're going through in terms of your frustration. It's actually a positive thing that he is well behaved at nursery - it means there's nothing wrong with him per se as he knows not to behave so badly in public or at least at nursery.

Finally, after many many tears (his and mine), rows (between me and my DH over what to do), posts on MN, I contacted my G.P. about it. I avoided it for a long time because I didn't want DS labelled as a problem child.

She was lovely, said it was a problem she is finding more and more these days and referred me to a paediatrician for a physical examination to make sure he was fine in his body, so to speak.

We had that appointment. The paed asked lots of questions about his behaviour and checked him over. We have since been referred to the local children's mental health team but we're still waiting for that appointment.

Meanwhile, school has helped a lot. And I'm afraid his age too. He understands more now. I'm still going for the mental health (don't know better way to put it) appointment when it comes through though because I want to be sure he's ok.

I know how you feel about the premeditated attacks on his sister. I used to get really freaked out about the apparent maliciousness my ds would show his sister and it really affected the way I felt about him because he was just so mean.

Your ds sounds very very intelligent. It's extremely hard on you but he will model your behaviour so it's vital you are always calm, gentle and absolutely non-violent. I shouted a lot in sheer frustration and now my ds shouts a lot too. That's my fault.

I really hope your ds calms down. Keep being consistent in one kind of 'punishment'. I would put ds on his bed with the door shut (shoot me but you try and live with a child like that) and keep putting him back there until he had calmed down and was ready to play normally again.

It didn't always work but it got him out of the way so we could give his poor little sister some attention. That's the other rub - the other children don't get as much attention because they're not difficult. It's not fair so be sure to give your daughter lots of attention.

I knew parenting was going to be hard work but my ds was a real shock to me in terms of stress levels and sheer frustration because I felt there was nothing I could do to make things better.

You're not alone. Try talking to your GP before you get to your wits end - I was sobbing alone in my car for an hour after one particularly awful day out when I decided we needed help. Describe his behaviour accurately and say that you need professional help. You might get some strategies that really help.

WOW! I think you are doing a bloody marvellous job lady and no mistake about it. I wish you were my mum

I've no advice but do wonder if someone at nursery is giving him a hard time (on the sly?)

I knew someone was going to call me on that midnight! My DS spits all the time, not at anyone, jsut at the floor or whatever. We tried everything under the sun to get him to stop. We used to consider it mild behavior and would count it, now it's a "straight to 3, timeout" behavior. He seems to be growing out of it, either that or he's getting sick of being sent to his room.

I think if you have a child who hits and bites, spitting might be considered mild behavior until you get the more aggressive actions under control.

Oh thank goodness another mum in the same boat as me. I actually joined mumsnet just so I could write this! My DS is just 3 and seems to be exactly the same. I was mortified when I picked him up from pre-school today as he had scratched another child!

All I can say is hang on in there. My eldest DS is now 6 and was similar too. Unfortunately its one of those horrible 'its just a phase' times (although this phase seems to last forever!! My 6 year old is now settled and shows his 'good' side 80% of the time.

Get lots of support from your friends too. I find it hard to take my DS out sometimes as he can be sooo unreasonable but it is important you carry on regardless to keep your own sanity.

Hang on in there. If all else fails they will be at school in two years time!!!!

I have a rather spirited very nearly 3y-o and one thing that I find helps with the negativity is preparing him for things. I don't know if your DS is the same, but ds2 hates being rushed into things - he's definitely at his worst when I'm trying to hustle him out of the house/away from a place/along the road etc. So, if I want him to do something, I'll tell him several times that it's about to happen and give him the opportunity to 'close down' whatever he's engrossed in. So, for example, today we were registering ds1 for school and at the appointment they were playing with lego, so I told him several times that we were nearly ready to go, and then asked him to find a parking place for the car he had so that we could go. I find that allowing him this sort of apparent 'control' over things does help to avoid the real meltdowns.