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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To demand a harder hitting campaign to promote breastfeeding?

1001 replies

WashwithCare · 11/01/2010 21:00

I?m sometimes taken aback to hear mothers gave up bf-ing because it was sore, or involved feeding for hours at a time? What did they expect? What did they think newborns do? Didn?t they imagine that anything chewing on your nipple for 10 hours a day was going to nip a bit?

But then again, who can blame them? Breastfeeding for the minimum WHO recommendation of 2 years is practically unheard of. Nearly everyone will tell you it?s absolutely your decision, and fine to stop. The public info campaign is fluffy and vague about the benefits, and the baby on the follow-on formula milk box looks decidedly peachy. Lots of women are so mis-informed, they believe that formula is almost as good as breastmilk.

Is it time for something a little harder hitting? How about this for a tv ad; (scene 1) mum feeding her newborn a bottle telling her mate how hard bf-ing was. Caption: Breastfeeding Hurts. (scene 2) same mum, but now older, bald and sick, hugs toddler. Caption: So does breast cancer. FADE to caption: "Breastfeeding significantly Reduces your Life Time Risk of Breast Cancer". Followed by cheesy inspirational slogan.

OP posts:
Oeufman · 13/01/2010 17:39

Hi

To use the words of verylittlecarrot..

Thanks to a genetic quirk, I also have a significantly increased likelihood of getting breast cancer.
I used to work as a marketing, scientist.
So perhaps I also have an unusual perspective on your proposal?

Currently the link between breastfeeding and BC is inconclusive. Many studies have shown a preventative benefit - however many well designed studies have failed to demonstrate this link.

I am regularly screened by a BC centre of excellence, with a highly regarded research department and they do not include my 9 years of breastfeeding in my risk assessment!

I am interested in the following dilemma:

I am booked in to have a prophylactic mastectomy early this year, but would love another baby. Would i be irresponsible to become a mother again knowing I really (even with a private midwife) cannot breastfeed?

To the women out there who have been diagnosed with BC, my thoughts are with you,

OM

CarmenSanDiego · 13/01/2010 17:56

Ouefman, Alison Stuebe's recent study is large scale (60,000+ women) and the findings were conclusive:

Here

Her study concentrates on women with a family history of breast cancer.

No, I don't think you would be irresponsible to have a baby knowing you can't breastfeed. The chances are strong that your baby won't suffer unduly for drinking formula.

I also think women have a choice, even if they can breastfeed and I support their right to have babies and feed them however they want.

But I think women who DO have that choice should consider it very carefully with full information.

Oeufman · 13/01/2010 18:41

Yes - but there are many other large studies that prove it inconclusive. You cannot ignore all the other studies, and skew the situation to what you WANT it to say. I am not saying it is not linked, just we do not know for certain yet.

The link is to an abstract and i am unable to view the actual publication - therefore it is hard to see the populations used, how long the women were studied etc Were these high risk pre-menopausal women ever genetically screened - if so is there a link with BRCA status? Is there a link to the Oestrogen receptor status of the tumour?

There have been many "conclusive" scary studies done... BC has over the years been linked to underwired bras, deoderant etc...

Every woman has the right to choose how to feed their baby - without feeling guilty or embarrassed.

OM

EvilHRLady · 13/01/2010 20:32

"The chances are strong that your baby won't suffer unduly for drinking formula."

Give me a break Carmen!

What a petty, mean-minded thing to say.

The OP was actually pretty easy to ignore, as it comes across as the ravings of a loon. This kind of nonsense is far more pernicious, as you like to dress up your personal beliefs in ''science'' to make it sound like YOU have all information and anyone who doesn't read the same research and come to the same conclusions is an idiot.

Carry on shoving it down people's throats and you'll probably do more to close people's minds to the information out there.

hobnobsaremyfavourite · 13/01/2010 20:37

"Suffer unduly" ffs you are feeding them formula not giving them electric shocks or waterboarding them. What a vile thing to say (and quite frankly I fed my babies. How I did that is my business so you can't put me in either camp Carmen.)

madmissy · 13/01/2010 20:44

I fucking hate these threads

I'm sick of reading threads that go out to make a FF mum look bad.
Some women don't want to BF
Some women can't BF

and you know what sometimes theres more to the whole image that you portray

i tried feeding dc3 this time but was spiralling quickly into depression yet again i was advised to stop and that its not bad to FF and you know what thank god for that midwife

I BF dc1 for 6 months so i guess i don't qualify to be on the perfect mummy list as i didn't go far enough

and with dc2 i had the same problem as this time

How about some of you pro BF mums think a bit further afield and get past your vendetta

i find this deeply upsetting

StayingDavidTennantsGirl · 13/01/2010 20:48

Saying "The chances are strong that your baby won't suffer unduly for drinking formula..." is really damning with faint praise, imo!! My dses not only did not suffer unduly on formula, they throve on it. Two passed the 11+ exam to go to selective school, one within the top 25 candidates, and all three are bright, so I don't think they suffered intellectually either.

This is just the sort of statement that puts the backs up of formula feeders.

madmissy · 13/01/2010 20:50

tenantsgirl...

well done to DS's

sparklycheerymummy · 13/01/2010 20:51

Oh my goodness this is awful....... i ff my dd and am breast feeing my ds.....lets see which one is totally screwed up and ill all the time??? (My ds currently has bronchiolitis)

A PARENT WHO LOVES THEIR CHILD, FEEDS THEM (however this may be), FILLS THEIR LIFE WITH FUN AND HAPPINESS IS A GOOD PARENT.......NOT JUST ONE WHO BREASTFEEDS.

I had severe PND with my dd and could hardly leave the house ..... was I also supposed to screw myself up more by trying to feed a ver colicky, refluxy, screamy babe or let people help me so i didnt top myself?? My dd is a healthy, happy little girl who sleeps well and eats a very good and balanced diet and is rarely ill! SHe did not suffer at all because I ff

WHAT MATTERS IS THAT OUR BABES ARE NOT LEFT STARVING!!!!!
I am now bf my ds because he took to it easily and i am a lot more stable in my head.

EdgarAllenSnow · 13/01/2010 20:55

the reason lack of support is highlighted, is because whilst, say 98% of swedish ladies successflly bf to 6mo - ony 20% of uk ladies do. therefore, it is fair to conclude that the vast majority of people could have continued if they wanted to/ had the right support. incidentally, both sets of stats include mix-feeding mums cory.

there is of course, that 1 in 50 that doesn't continue even with good support - no one denies this!

i for one am tired of having the lies of formula manafacturers rammed down my throat, and can't see any good reason not to promote BF in a more effective way.

mrsbean78 · 13/01/2010 20:55

These threads are stupid and ridiculous. I am breastfeeding right now and it has been a long and arduous struggle to get it to work with - shock! horror! - some formula supplementation along the way. Judging from what someone said about Swedish women 'thinking' they breastfeed despite supplementation, the fact my LO gets 8oz formula a day means that he is effectively not being breastfed (despite being on the breast for 30-40 minutes at each feed before each formula top up as he tries to regain the 20% body weight he lost while being fed by breast alone).

Breastfeeding is not the cure for everything. Babies who are breastfed become ill and die just like ff babies; it is no guarantee of anything. It was personally important to me to keep it going but bfing as I do, or exclusively, would not make me a better mother than anyone else.

It bothers me hugely that politicans and journalists laud this site for its 'educated' middleclass users, who despite this education, feel it is perfectly reasonable to be smug, argumentative and dismissive of other's choices.

madmissy · 13/01/2010 20:58

"i for one am tired of having the lies of formula manafacturers rammed down my throat, and can't see any good reason not to promote BF in a more effective way"

how is it rammed down your throat if you breastfeed?

wubblybubbly · 13/01/2010 21:16

So what do the stats say about the length of time a woman breastfeeds? Is 2 years better than 6 months for example?

Also, what are the stats on combined feeding? Do you only get the protection if you exclusively breast feed or do breast and bottle work just as well?

Sorry if these points have already been covered, I have read the full thread but might have missed them.

Oeufman · 13/01/2010 21:33

CarmenSanDiego - managed to find more conclusions from that large scale "conclusive study"...

However, Stuebe's team also found that women who did not breastfeed but used medication to suppress production of breast milk had a 42 percent lower risk of developing breast cancer than women who neither breastfed nor used medication to suppress breast milk production.

look here

How is this going to be reflected in the marketing for BF vs FF? Using scare tactics, making women feel guilty or giving mis-information never does any good!

I hasten to add I BF my 4 children for many years, I enjoyed feeding my children but do not wish to inflict my choices on anyone else.

CarmenSanDiego · 13/01/2010 21:46

I apologise, HRWoman. I phrased that badly. The chances are strong that your baby will do absolutely fine on formula milk, grow up and live a long healthy life. Yes, it was unreasonable of me to have said that and I take it back.

I don't agree that I'm 'dressing up my personal beliefs in science.' My personal beliefs are /based/ on the studies I have read. Of course you may read them and come to a different conclusion. Your choice.

But a lot of women haven't read any studies or have any clear grasp of the information and base their choices not to breastfeed on very limited education. If you don't have the facts, you can't make an informed choice. Most women in the US and the UK don't have those facts. I have not ever said 'if you read everything you will choose to breastfeed' but I have asked whether having more information would make a difference. I think it would.

An awful lot of words, values and opinions are being put into my mouth here. I don't think anyone here is a bad parent or a horrible mother or any of the other things I've been accused of saying or thinking.

So here is what I DO think:

  1. That breastfeeding has specific health advantages for babies and mothers based on available evidence.
  2. That most newly pregnant women (not all, and MNers are not a representative sample) have limited education in the benefits of breastfeeding. Most believe that 'breast is best' but don't know anything more specific.
  3. That not everyone can breastfeed but the vast majority can, given the proper support.
  4. That having a strong plan to breastfeed influences success. It doesn't guarantee it, but it does make you more likely to put in place the factors you need to succceed.
  5. That breastfeeding is an emotive subject and any education or advertising has to be handled sensitively. (But sometimes, no matter how sensitively you handle it, people will be upset.)
nighbynight · 13/01/2010 21:59

washwithcare, please do start a thread about women going back to work....no, I have absolutely no ulterior motives at all in suggesting this.

Am I the only person who keeps thinking that this thread title is about going out and hitting people you dont agree with? Strangely attractive.

cory · 13/01/2010 22:09

EdgarAllenSnow Wed 13-Jan-10 20:55:06
"the reason lack of support is highlighted, is because whilst, say 98% of swedish ladies successflly bf to 6mo - ony 20% of uk ladies do. therefore, it is fair to conclude that the vast majority of people could have continued if they wanted to/ had the right support. incidentally, both sets of stats include mix-feeding mums cory."

My point about the 98% is that I have yet to meet the Swedish mum who counts the occasional top up from a bottle or mug as "mixed feeding". They wouldn't think of putting themselves down in a survey as mised feeders just because they poured a bit extra into little Anders from the jug when he seemed to be still hungry (or välling once he is old enough). Whereas here, most women who have ever once succumbed to a bottle seem to think they no longer count as real breastfeeders.

Surveys are only as good as the perceptions f the people answering them. And if perceptions are not the same in two cultures, then reporting will also be different.

drloves8 · 13/01/2010 22:24

FFS - ive just read all of this thread and i feel sick.
i ff some of my kids, i bf some , and i mixed fed my DD4. "IF" formula was so bad then why did the consultant in the scubu unit prescribe some for dd4 ?.ITS not bad for babies , it helped dd4 put weight on so i could bring her home. its just not mum-made. too true mums have enough to feel guilty about.
honestly feel sick at the cancer comment btw....have lost too many people to this awful disease. .

hogshead · 13/01/2010 22:39

The only thing i would add to this thread is that whilst a `hard hitting' campaign would raise awareness it would make no mention of how lifestyle choices can also factor in your likehood of developing diseases such as cancer. Also by BF you are not guaranteeing protection from cancer - my mother was breastfeed as a baby and breastfeed me and my sister and still died of ovarian cancer (which BFing is also supposed to reduce your risk) at the age of 51. I can only speak from personal experience but when grief is very raw a campaign like the one susggested would have caused great upset to me and my immediate family. I still find the Cancer Research UK adverts too near the mark even 2 years on.

WashwithCare · 13/01/2010 22:46

Blinking 'ell - that was a marathon read!

Noticed a couple of posters complaining I had disappeared - sorry, but I have to work y'know...

I'm genuinely sorry for any offence. The point wasn't to offend people, but to stimulate a discussion. I agree pretty much with everything Carmen, EdgarAllenSnow and Standanddelvier say...

These 2 quotes are so good, they are worth saying again...

Standanddeliver
There'll never be the sort of political and social impetus to drive the sort of cultural change we need to make breastfeeding the norm without a challenge to the sort of thinking we have now about the issue - as evidenced by the sheer number of posts on this board which are insistent that how a baby is fed doesn't actually matter. It does matter. People need to understand exactly why.

EdgarAllenSnow
the reason lack of support is highlighted, is because whilst, say 98% of swedish ladies successflly bf to 6mo - ony 20% of uk ladies do. therefore, it is fair to conclude that the vast majority of people could have continued if they wanted to/ had the right support.

Absolutely!

OP posts:
tethersend · 13/01/2010 23:00

Just to clarify, WWC- how many DCs do you have?

RedbinDippers · 13/01/2010 23:01

How about a scene from Little Britain showing the virtues of breast feeding for post adolescents.

WashwithCare · 13/01/2010 23:18

tethersend, just the one and another on the way...

OP posts:
BlueCollie · 13/01/2010 23:23

Fuck me............what a thread LOL

I was so set on BF and couldn't work out why anyone would not try it. However, I could not BF due to my body trying to keep me alive. I tried for 10 days while I was in hospital...mainly because of all the publicity of BF is Best. It was distressing for both me and my baby and my partner to watch. My milk never came in as I was too ill however I tried expressing to get it started and most days my partner had to hold the expressing machine on me as I was too sick to hold it myself. 10 days of getting so upset and my baby getting distressed because there was no milk but I feeling like such a failure if I didn't succeed. I think the campaign for BF is good enough as I still feel guilty for not being able to and I physically wasn't able to due to terrible birth I had and nearly dying. So the idea that someone thinks it needs to be an even harder hitting campaign has pissed me right off!!! Yes there may be a link but quite frankly cancer has an awful lot to do with genetics and lifestyle. I don't need someone telling me I'm now going to get cancer because I didn't BF and therefore implying that if I do get it it's my own fault.....GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
Plus I would also like to point out my son is happy and healthy he hasn't had a single cold or cough and has been near a fair few people with colds including me and and his dad. However, three people I know who are BF there babies have all had a stressful time because there babies have had nasty colds and one baby is in hospital. Kinda throws out the immune reason for BF really.
I'm going to stop ranting now................

nooka · 14/01/2010 03:55

It's an interesting idea that research and statistics will change behaviour, or that hard hitting adverts will make people think twice. In the UK at least many many people deeply distrust the government and public health as a result of the way that the BSE/vCJD was communicated/managed and the MMR/Wakefield affair. That means that no matter how much information is given, it may well be ignored because it isn't trusted. Even when there is a very direct link between the adverse effect of something (smoking being the best example) it doesn't mean that when you know something is good/bad that your behaviour will change - think of how many mothers smoke when pregnant, or who manage to give up when pregnant and then start again.

Public campaigns are very crude tools, and they have to be carefully applied. Also given that many of the mothers having babies were not breastfed themselves and that most of them are in good health, it really isn't that intuitive that ff is bad, and I think ramming it down people's throats would be really ineffective. Except perhaps for HVs.

Providing research evidence more generally to more people is an excellent idea, but it would also mean teaching critical appraisal skills to everyone, as the way that research is presented can be very difficult to decipher. I studied critical appraisal as part of my Masters in Public Health, and it was one of the hardest course I've ever taken. Well worthwhile though.

So looking at the leukemia study (you can read the whole paper, which is excellent) the first thing to bear in mind is that whilst there may be a protective effect (longer breastfeeding having a stronger effect is a good indicator), in terms of absolute numbers that effect is fairly tiny. So from the US Leukemia & Lymphoma Society, there is an estimate that in 2009, 3,509 children under the age of 15 will be diagnosed with leukemia throughout the United States, the equivalent number for the UK is about 500 a year (from the Children with Leukemia website). So a 21% reduction in risk when the risk is 0.00005 (46.1 cases in every million) is on an individual basis somewhat meaningless. That's not to say it might not be an important finding, and help to understand more about leukemia (which given that the cause is unknown is particularly important).

Thinking about Brahms point this is an observational study, the mothers were asked a large number of retrospective questions by telephone, and the controls were only matched for age on diagnosis, race (white/non-white) and geography (all participants were from the US/Canada). All parents had to be English speaking and have a home phone, so that would have some equalising effect. They did however adjust their analysis for education, race and family income. The other thing that struck me is that the numbers of ever breastfed in each group were not that dissimilar (% of ever breastfed in the control group 55%:48% never breastfed) although in statistical terms 7% is not to be sniffed at (and obviously significant). It looks like a fairly decent study, and the authors do discuss recall bias, selection bias, chance findings etc) and there is also an interesting discussion as to why breastfeeding might be protective.

However, there is a more recent meta-analysis goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-3465797/Breastfeeding-and-the-risk-of.html which includes a couple of large cohort studies (these are more reliable as they are longitudinal studies and suffer from less bias, although again observational) and these show no correlation. The conclusion drawn this time is that the relationship is probably very complicated. It's a good piece if anyone is interested, quite readable. For me the trouble is that what tends to get reported from research is a few cherry picked figures rarely presented in proportion, and data complications are rarely mentioned at all.

I do think that breastfeeding brings many benefits for both mother and child, but threatening people with cancer if they don't isn't a good approach (especially when it's really not true).

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