To have taken my 19 month old DS to the first 45 mins of a carol service?

[aarghhelp]

(This is my 1st AIBU thread so am feeling a bit apprehensive but here goes).

Just got back from a carol service. We have 2 churches in our village, and 2 carol services. We go regularly to one or other church. The 3pm service suited us best timewise, but was at the slightly more old fashioned church. The feedback we've had from regulars in the church is that they think it's lovely we take DS to church.

The carol service today was packed out and actually the standard of music was v high and if anything better than I expected. DS is used to being in church and was pretty good. He didn't cry and was fairly content but, being 19 months, occasionally burbled and shuffled a bit where we were sitting. If he started burbling during a relatively quiet bit of the service I took him out (we were deliberately sitting near the door). We stayed out during more lengthy spoken bits.

When we came in again in time for a hymn DS was on my knee and put his hands on the backrest in front. The woman in front shifted and I whispered "Sorry" . Her companion turned round to me in the snippiest way and barked "You should take him out". Since we had only just been out for a break, and actually he was being rather good, apart from holding onto the backrest, presumably she meant we shouldn't have darkened the church service at all.

I was at a bit of a loss what to do then really. I didn't want to flounce out. After all, this was only one person and probably other people didn't think the same way. Also, this was a person I hadn't seen at church services before. (That in itself raises various issues about who should be the more accommodating and how).

I did leave the service after about 45 mins as DS was getting more restless and I thought 45 mins might be long enough. That also avoided the whole thing of what to say to said woman if she was nasty to me at the end of the service.

I searched this as a topic on mumsnet and I found a thread from last year on the whole topic of taking children to carol services but from the point of view of someone who'd been annoyed by a "squalling infant". I wondered what you would say to this scenario though.

Miserable person! YANBU! The other person most certainly is.

yanbu. I go to church sometimes but they were miserable old witches.

YANBU. Children make noises. It's a christmas carol service, not as someone else already mentioned a memorial service.

The woman was utterly utterly unreasonable and a complete cow! I really hate such hostile attitudes towards children from so-called Christians.

I have a 12-month-old DD and I go to a very old-fashioned high Anglican church where the congregation are mostly older and there are hardly any children. I have been paranoid about my daughter making too much noise in church, but every time I go people go out their way to say how nice it is to see a child there and don't seem bothered by her occasional gurgling and shuffling. There may well be some who resent children in church but no-one has had the guts/heart to say anything to me.

With less and less people going to church nowadays I would imagine most churches would welcome young families with open arms! And should people with children just not go to church at all?

As somebody already said:

But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

She was just being miserable! I went to one tonight. The DC behind, around the same age kept saying 'I want to go home' and the mother took him out for a little walk around-he came back and liked the candles. Another one took a little walk and everyone smiled at her. Take no notice!

yanbu

I am a childrens worker for a church and get so frustrated by ssshhhing old women!
we hold 3 seperate services for children over christmas where they are expected to behave like children and enjoy themselves not like the mini adults this lady seems to think they should be!
The vicar told anyone in our service who was going to be shhh a child during our nativity would be told off themselves!

Sounds like our church. Our vicar welcomes children of all ages but the same cannot be said for some of the parishoners. Ds has stood in front of the alter dancing. The vicar thinks it is funny but if looks could kill I wouldn't be going anymore. He (vicar) makes a point that children (and noisy) children are very welcome.

"No, murmuring and shuffling is fine. In fact, any normal child behaviour is OK, but if the volume reaches a level that it disrupts the proceedings, time to leave."

exactly, staying if he had been screaming through the carol service would not be reasonable

babbling and murmuring or clambering should be tolerated, if not encouraged

YANBU

While I say our church isn't that suitable for young families year round, as the services are veeery long, our vicar does make a point at the start of the carol service of saying 'don't worry about any noise from children, I've got a very loud voice and a microphone!'. Which sets the tone quite nicely, for everyone, I think.

"No, murmuring and shuffling is fine. In fact, any normal child behaviour is OK, but if the volume reaches a level that it disrupts the proceedings, time to leave."

Amen to that!

YANBU

lastyears squalling brat may well have been me.

it was bawling for the entire hour and a half service though. not just burbling but screaching. all the way through. and i was hoemonal. and needing some peace.

this year i have been much more patient and christian in my thoughts and only got huffy with the people in front who decided to have a chat together during the prayers.

A service at 3pm sounds like it has been planned with families in mind. What you did in terms of taking your LO out when he was being ultra-wriggly and for the long talky bits sounds incredibly sensible and sensitive.

Our church has just had an evening carol service that our 5-year-old and 6-month-old did not attend because it was an evening service and they were in bed. There was a family nativity service this morning, there will be another on Christmas Day and a christingle service on Christmas Eve. I feel that church goers who are not happy with the occasional squawk or wriggly child should make an effort to ignore the squawks/wriggles or else go to a service that is held after bedtime!

good lord that was a whole nest of worms i caused there - 7 pages! possibly the longest thread i ever started. and allbecause i ewas given to unchristian thoughts.

once again - profuse apologies. i am a bitch. sorry.

YANBU

I've just got back from my carol service with 9m ds. He is always welcomed and people are pleased to see him.

Today, he pulled off my glasses and threw them at the lady infront. She just laughed. He also decided that the final prayers were the exact minute he needed to make friends with the old men sat behind and babbled at them until they entertained him.

If he starts whinging, I tend to feed him before it becomes a wail. If it was a wail, I'd go out.

Church should be somewhere children are free to be themselves.

oh good lord - haven't read the other replies - but you should have come our carol service tonight.

I lost count of how any babies/toddlers in pushchairs/arms there were. Yes some giggled, some laughed, some whinged, some cried. No-one cared.

I think there were some running around at the bakc as well (thought couldn't see as it was packed and I was at the front on the organ).

IME every church has a couple of old bats who see it as their mission in life to ssh children in church, but the vast majority of people aren't bothered by a bit of noise at all, especially not during a carol service FFS.

Our vicar is fab & if a child is making a noise he usually says something along the lines of "make as much noise as you like, but I'll win as I've got a mike & I can always turn it up!" & laughs He always makes a point of reminding everyone that children are today's Christians, NOT tomorrow's Christians and are welcome any time in church.

actually the biggest noise came from one poor little girl from the infant school (we invited the 2 attached schools - junior and infant - to come and sing at the carol service as well) suddenly became overcome with fear when they stood up at the front and went screaming down the aisle shouting that she wanted to go home.

Infant school choir started singing and then she threw a wobbly because she actually wanted to sing after all........some kind parent (not her own - her own poor mum was at a loss what to do) managed to calm her down and sneak her on the end just in time for the last 30 seconds of the 2nd song they did.

And theres me thinking that Christmas was the time for goodwill to all men (and women and children) and that most people's gods consider ALL people to be god's children. What an unchristian attitude that man has.

I prefer the attitude of the priest encountered by my mum when as a nervous 20 yo she took me, a babe in arms at the time, to my first service. She expressed her concerns to the vicar but he smiled and said, "Mrs X, please don't worry, I can shout my sermon far louder than your baby can scream!".

Sorry you had to leave the service. It sounds like you behaved very appropriately and considerately.

Perhaps the grumpy dude in front was not a regular church-goer? You get loads of 'tourists' at Christmas services.

The only way to get children used to church service is to take them. You have to get a balance of participating yourself, and being hyper-sensitive to other people. I think you pitched it right by going out when DS was particularly restless and leaving when it was a lost cause. In fact, you probably erred on the side of being over-considerate.

A lot of people think that churches should accomodate any behaviour and just be grateful for young families. I don't feel that it should be that extreme. Nor do I think that children should be silent and invisible. A certain standard of behaviour for older children and adults is expected, and young children are on the path to achieving that - they are not there yet. A free for all doesn't move them along on this path at all, but what you have done does.

At Christmas, there is often a range of services on offer. At my church, we have the Nativity (today), a Crib service on Christmas Eve - both of which are bedlam. The more sober 9 lessons and carols is more appropriately a people-who-can-sit-stll-and-quietly-zone. Similarly, the Midnight Mass vs Christmas Day family service.

What a horrible attitude... lovely that you take DS to carol service.

Unless the baby is determinedly screaming, I'd say stay. In church this morning, we had lots of new people since it's near Christmas and people like to come. All the regulars were smiling at the sight of a toddler who was carefully informing his parents of what was going on as it happened (eg. 'Dad, now the lady is going up steps'). It certainly made me smile.

What I noticed was that the only person who frowned was someone I have never seen at that church before! So I would hazard the guess that the person who was mean to you, might actually be as new to that church as you!

If anyone is rude, just smile and mutter, 'Jesus said, suffer little children to come unto me' --- then beat a hasty retreat!

15mo DD will be going to Midnight Service on Christmas Eve as DH & I are both singing in the choir. The choir leader has organised a babysitter to tame her & the other babies if they kick off but nobody's going to care in the slightest if they're shuffling about/burbling/playing with toys at the back of the church. (And frankly if she kicks off dunring Hark the Herald nobody'll hear her over the organ anyway!)

She comes with us every Sunday; goes into the creche if there is one & stays with us if not. If she gets really noisy we take her to the back where the toybox is & that tends to avert the crisis.

My parents' church on the other hand is distinctly intolerant of all children-related noise (although strangely not of the vicar's dog) and I feel this could possibly be one of the explanations for the fact that their congregation is about 30 on a REALLY good day. There are obviously other factors but being so monumentally unwelcoming is not helping their cause.