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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Proposed law regarding cohabitees and intestacy.

126 replies

marantha · 17/12/2009 08:50

AIBU in thinking that the proposal put forward by the Law Commission to make a cohabitee AUTOMATIC next-of-kin* in the event of their partner dying intestate is one step too far and an invasion of people's right to a private life?

  • I stress that this is NOT an attack on cohabitees AND that I believe that people should be allowed to leave what they want to whoever they please-cohabitee or not- PROVIDED THEY EXPLICITLY STATE IT IN WRITING.
OP posts:
marantha · 17/12/2009 16:11

oojimaflip, I am pissed off about those things too as it happens. But they aren't the issues at hand here.

OP posts:
ooojimaflip · 17/12/2009 16:13

Oh I can't be bothered, lets just abolish private ownership and the whole issue goes away.

ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 16:18

i can't be bothered either.

my stuff is in order.

marantha · 17/12/2009 16:21

ImsoNotTelling, Don't be like that. I thought we were common-law married!! See you in court!

OP posts:
FolornHope · 17/12/2009 16:22

peopel dont belive in "COMON LAW" ANY MORE DO they?

StewieGriffinsMom · 17/12/2009 16:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Fibilou · 17/12/2009 16:59

"the current situation infringes the rights of co-habitees who DO want to be considered next of kin"

The answer to that is simple, they should go up the registry office and get married. Don't even have to have a wedding. Just pay for the licence - which is cheaper than paying a lawyer to write a will. And you don't have to pay death duties on your inheritance.

Hulababy · 17/12/2009 17:01

Simple answer:

Make a will - a decent, proper will. Even if married you should do this, if you want to ensure that your estate goes to who you want it to go to.

Fibilou · 17/12/2009 17:02

Oojamiflip, legislation needs to have watertight definitions to make them work - otherwise you end up with all sorts of loopholes and law has to be defined by judicial precedent. Any leglislation would have to be worded extremely carefully.

It's not as simple as just "as long as everyone understands it"

I

ooojimaflip · 17/12/2009 17:34

(I'm not here)

Fibilou -
You don't need a lawyer to write a will - you can do it yourself - you can even buy packs of forms so you get all the legal boilerplate

still hasn't got a will

It IS as simple as "as long as everyone understands it" - a pre-requisite of that is clear definition. My point was really that as long as someone know if they were covered by the law they would know that had to take an action if they wanted to change it.

I'm not in favour of changing the law - but I don't really think it matters either way.

ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 18:06
Hulababy · 17/12/2009 19:22

Oh please don't write your own wills, or use a will writer!

Use a proper qualified and experienced solicitor who specialises in this area of law. Get it done properly!

marantha · 17/12/2009 20:07

oojimaflip, there is no clear definition of coahbitation in law- that is why the concept of cohabitation is vague and subjective and open to fraud/abuse by unscrupulous people who wish to make out that their relationship with the person they lived with was more "committed" than it was.
This is why the whole cohabitation issue is so fraught with difficulty as it is impossible to know what really goes on between two people behind closed doors.
At least with marriage there is proof -in the form of a certificate- that at a set point in time a couple declared to witnesses that they wished to be considered each other's nearest and dearest.

OP posts:
WilfSell · 17/12/2009 22:27

Loooooooooooooooooooooooooook, everyone.... Statistically, women still earn less than men. Women with children still mostly care for those children. Women with children under 5 who have no work or no partner with work are amongst some of the poorest families in the UK. Women who don't work because they care for children while their partners (often unmarried) work OFTEN become financially dependent upon those men. Dependent women who live with working men who don't put those women as named beneficiaries on the mortgage/life insurance/pension are probably - in many cases, if not all - the same women who would HOPE the father of their children would marry them, but the fathers refuse. How many men have you met who are shy of putting an actual ring on an actual finger? Even if they do have children?

Surely this legislation is about protecting them? Or am I missing something?

It is pointless to say 'get married then' or 'make a will' to many women: THEY are not the ones with the assets. Or the control.

Fibilou · 17/12/2009 22:37

"You don't need a lawyer to write a will - you can do it yourself - you can even buy packs of forms so you get all the legal boilerplate"

I work in an office full of lawyers, am studying law and am a police officer. I wouldn't write my own will and I am familiar with legalese.
Will writing should be left to lawyers that know what they are doing - just like conveyancing, criminal defence and everything else.

Fibilou · 17/12/2009 22:43

And it is certainly NOT as simple as "as long as everyone understands it". You are very naive if you think that. Legal definitions run to pages and pages of notes, cross references and definitions within definitions. Then there is case law and HRA to be complied with.

Laws aren't written on the back of a fag packet and passed as long as everyone has the general jist of them.

Take theft for example - a very clear concept which we all understand. It's defined as dishonestly appropriating property belonging to another with the intention of depriving the other of it - within that definition under S1 Theft Act is held lots of other definitions which are further defined in other sections, subsections and paragraphs. For this legislation to come in all sorts of casual concepts such as "living together", "cohabitee", relationship etc would have to be defined - because that is the whole purpose of the law, to regulate.

ooojimaflip · 17/12/2009 23:42

Fibilou - you know, Lawyers only want you to think that you need them for everything

If your will is simple ,then you know, you CAN probably put that together yourself.
Same with conveyancing - plenty of people do that themselves to.
Criminal Defence, however, I might want a pro for.

Good laws need good definitions. There isn't a definition as there isn't a law yet afaik. So we can't judge this yet.

But it doesn't matter - change the law or don't the end result is the same - you either make the decision yourself or the state makes it for you.

ooojimaflip · 17/12/2009 23:42

Bet I've lost that tenner as well as the kitkat now

ooojimaflip · 17/12/2009 23:43

cancels hit on Imsonottelling

ooojimaflip · 17/12/2009 23:49

"I don't think it especailly matters as long as everyone understands it." wasn't intended to mean, "we don't need a clear definition", it was intended to mean - "I don't give a fuck how you define it as long as everyone agrees on the definition".

As however it is defined an individual will still be able to so exactly what they want.

ImSoNotTelling · 18/12/2009 09:00

It takes a very specific and unusual sort of bastard though to actively write his partner and children out of everything. The usual situation for unmarried couples will be that the house is co-owned (if there is a house), that there won't be any life insurance, that there won't be any will. In which case the surviving partner gets the house and the children get the inheritance.

For the house to be owned by one partner only as a default, the mortgage would need to be entirely in that person's name ie based on their income alone OR they would have to pay additional £££ to have a non-standard agreement drawn up. ie one person would have to actively seek that and the other would have to agree and sign the forms etc.

Pension beneficiaries are decided at the discretion of the trustees. People complete an expression of wish form but that can be over-ridden by the trustees. In a case where eg a man had a partner and children but had said he wanted his pension paid to his mother, the trustees would likely over-ride that. if there was a childrens element to the pension then the children would get that irrespective of what the person had said.

Life insurance I am not so clued up on

My point is that the default position for people who do nothing is that pensions and inheritance are probably going to be fine.

To make sure your partner and children got nothing, you would have to go out of your way, paying solicitors £££, to arrange it, and even then it might not work.

I accept that many men are financially abusive, you only need to look at these boards to see that. But I contend that it takes a very specific sort of wealthy and thorough bastard to actively write people out. I just don't believe that this is enough of a problem for the law to be changed in this way, given the impact that it will have on thousands of couples who are in casual relationships with no children, who for the reasons I have outlined above will be very unlikely to take action to change things back to how they were in the first place.

ImSoNotTelling · 18/12/2009 09:07

I should also point out that the majority of life insurance schemes through work are held as part of the pension fund, and so the discretionary idea applies there too. The person can write whoever they want on the form, but if the trustess decide someone else is the correct beneficiary, then they can pay them instead.

Again most trustees would recognise that a co-habiting partner with children is the correct person to benefit from the life cover.

Also interesting to note that most pensions these days include cohabiting partners (people who are living together as if married) including those in same sex relationships as beneficiaries. In that regard the insurance and pensions business, along with HR departments, are quite forward thinking. 30 years ago it was all widow's pensions, where a woman was paid if her husband died but working women's husbands would not benefit if they died, as it was assumed they were only ever working for pin money and that men were always the main earners. Things have changed relatively quickly in that regard (helped of course by discrimination laws!).

marantha · 18/12/2009 11:22

Right, I am going to sound completely nasty here but here goes:
If the price of having the state stay out of the private lives of cohabitees and making new laws regarding them is that some women who did not bother to secure a financial agreement of some description with their partners miss out so be it- it is a price worth paying.
As long as children are protected REGARDLESS of parental marital status, I don't mind.

OP posts:
ImSoNotTelling · 18/12/2009 12:58

Actually my above points - if one partner is a nasty bastard and manages to get partner's name off the deeds etc, the new law won't change that, as it will still be over-ridden by subsequent legal things. So the nasty bastard will still screw his family.

NancyDrewRocks · 18/12/2009 15:21

Fibilou I am a lawyer and I disagree with you. Provided you are not trying to set up complicated trusts etc then writing a will yourself is a very good option and certainly far more sensible than not having one at all.

For a straight forward I leave everything to my partner/children or leave to my partner in trust for my children then the ready made kits from WH Smiths are excellent and absolutely as good as getting a lawyer to draw on up.

I can tell you this because although I am a lawyer I don't make big bucks out of drafting wills