to wonder where this behaviour has come from all of a sudden?

[lorrycat]

DS is 17mo and i have noticed that over the last few weeks has become very cheeky and disobedient.

As all children, he is very inquisitive and loves to push all the button on the sky box/dvd player etc etc. And he has a real interest in our kitchen bin.

I have tried so hard to distract him, say 'no' firmly, pull him away whilst eplaining that he cannot touch etc etc.

Now i really try to pick my battles with him however i really don't like him touching the bin and i fear that he may break the sky box/dvd player if he keeps prodding it on and off. So i do persist in telling him off for these particular things.

Last night he was really testing my patience and even though i warned him and he continued, i had to put him into his cot to calm down, as he persistently shouted 'no' at me when i told him to come away from the bin. In fact one of the occasions he hit me. When i put him in his cot for time out he shouted 'no' at me for the full 5 mins. When i went down to the room and asked him if he was ready to come back and play and say sorry to mummy, he said 'no' once again, so i left him there another 5 mins before he finally agreed to give me a hug.

Is this normal? I asked the staff at his creche and they told me that they have noticed this but they think its because he has been moved from the baby room into the toddler room and is now playing with older children and possibly copying them. They use a time-out mat and have told me that what i'm doing is fine (although they have suggested his bed is possibly not a great place to use for time out).

Anyone else driven insane by thier children hitting terrible two's early

My ds was ust like that from the ages for 14months until about 4 bloody years. Still had his moments, but at last at 7 he has suddenly turned into Perfect Peter.

It was helish for a couple of years though, we literally had to stay in the house as toddler groups were awful for me.

No real advice, seeing as I couldn't even sort out my own child, but I think it is a stage that most children go through to varying degrees.

If I were to have another child though, I would be a lot firmer from the outset, no warnings etc, but that would just be my reastion to what had gone on with ds.

This thread might reassure you
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/873148-17-month-old-touching-everything

He is not naughty, he is a baby. He needs to learn what is right to do and how to touch things. I wouldn't really bother with 'time out' at this age, rather teach them an alternative and distract. If you have to physically remove, that's fine but that's enough. No need for Supernanny style 'full 5 mins' and 'say sorry to Mummy' IMVHO.

Good luck - I have a 17mth ds who drives me to distraction too

DS is 15mo and loves the tv buttons and the kitchen bin. I think that's universal!
Sounds like you are dealing with it fine so just carry on and brace yourself!

Rescue remedy got me through this stage....

One morning soon though, he will wake up having been visited by the personality pixie and all of a sudden he will be an actual little person who does pay attention (mostly) to what you say. All this will seem a distant memory, honestly. There were times I thought I would go insane, but grit your teeth, repeat yourself and try not to lose your cool.

Good luck
xMad

Although, I will add that I had friends who did the whole naughty step routine at that age, and it didn't seem to do any good. It seemed to stress them out more trying to keep a baby in one place. I think 17 months is quite young to really understand whats going on with that.

I used to say no remove him from the situation as it used to mean the least amount of stress for me.

He is probably saying no in repetition to you. Get a tv stand with doors and put the sky box behind it so he can't reach it. 17 months is very young - he isn't being badly behaved, he is being a baby and he isn't picking battles with you! As for the kitchen bin - either put it out of sight or put up a baby gate to the kitchen so he can't access it. Babies are inquisitive at this stage and learning.

The cot is definitely not the place to put him for a time out either. He will associate it with being naughty and not sleeping. Do you have a travel cot you can set up instead? 17 months is very young for a time out routine and you shouldn't leave them to think about what they have done in minutes longer than their years. EG your son is 1 so you should only leave him for a minute - not 5.

I don´t think time out will help much at this stage and will just stress you out. In this situation I just said no, removed him and distracted him with something else. Ds is now 2.7 and we have only used time out a couple of times and for big things he knows he shouldn´t do (like biting us so hard it hurts). Even then we only do 2 mins max.. if you are going by supernanny she does say only 1 min per year I think.. and I don´t stress too much about getting an apology, I just kneel down, tell him why he had a time out and then give him a hug and move on. As we´ve only done it a couple of times its hard to say if it has worked but if anything else it gets him out of the way while i go breeeeeathe and calm down! Nevertheless I am reluctant to lean on it as a method of discipline though and would try to only use it for ´big´ things (the biting for us is a big thing as he nips right in the inner thigh and it really really hurts! and leaves a mark! owwww)

my boss has twins and she has used the naughty step since they were about this age, maybe even younger. I´m occasionally tempted to ask if she thinks it actually works as she seems to indicate they are on it a lot!

Could you buy him a bin to play with too - a swing bin he can drop / hide his toys in and get them out?

My DS is 22 months and totally going through this too. It is very normal so I accept that. I don't also think time out is appropriate at this age. I don't use it on my son yet and I wouldn't put hi in his cot. I remove myself from the room (knowing he is safe and I am in the next room). He usually stands at the gate shouting for me, I ignore him and he can't actually see me but he knows I'm there. He gives up very fast and his tantrums are usually very short. I find the constant telling off for the things you don't want frustrating but I know that the moment I give in, it will all be for nothing, so I never give in and I try to distract him, this often works. If it doesn't, thats when I go. I also choose to ignore the trivial things too, as you can't tell them no to every little thing.

It's completely normal, and while it could be related to something, it could be just a stage he would go through anyway - being "into everything" is typical for that age. I think he's a bit young for 5-minute time outs - he won't have the attention span to understand that it's supposed to change his behaviour.

For me distraction always worked much better - I gave DS old remote controls and phones with no batteries in, and I had a cupboard in the kitchen full of unbreakable containers and wooden spoons that he could investigate and empty out while I was cooking. I will also confess to having a playpen at that stage though I know some frown upon them. If I really had to cook or get something urgent done, he could go in there for a few minutes.

I wouldn't associate "punishment" with his bed and nor would I make anything dependent on whether he wants to hug you - that's too much pressure and love and affection should have nothing to do with behaviour. tbh I don't like time out at all because it's not linked to what the child has done. Natural consequences make more sense if possible, eg if he drops something he helps to pick up the bits; if he won't leave the DVD alone he can't stay in the front room.

Having said all that, DS will still mess with the bin and he's 4 now. It's just a compelling fascination he has

Thanks so much Adair - i feel relieved to have read that other post - yay DS is normal and not just deliberately trying to drive me to wine lol!

I think i got so worked up because my father is from a generation who believes in smacking and i certainly don't want to smack DS. I had rung Dad last night about the hard evening i'd had with DS and as always the response way "a smack on the bum never did me any harm".

But all i can think is if i did something wrong, how would i react if someone smacked me!!!!

I think he persists in doing it because you tell him off.......I really do.

At 17 months, in my humble opinion, distraction is your best tool. Say no, remove him, and immediately distract. It's just a case of finding some stuff that DOES distract him - water play, banging saucepans, bubbles, many things should work.

Keep the bin clean as you can. Doesn't matter if his hands go on it. They need to build their immune systems and as the saying goes "you've got to eat a pound of dirt before you die"

I certainly wouldn't do time out at this age and I certainly wouldn't do it in that 'oppositional' way eg stay there until you are ready to say sorry.....because thing is so many kids are oppositional by nature and if you set up a 'battle' situation, they will happily don helmets and join battle

distraction is king

and so is lowering your expectations
Don't expect him to simply listen to you - you need to remove him and distract him

I'm not for smacking either. I always said (before I had DS) that a tap on the hand wouldn't hurt but now its not something I want to do at all. There was a time when he was going through a kicking phase, particularly when being changed and once he really got me in the stomach and I did smack him. It made me feel soooooo bad and I just felt like I had lost control that I have never done it again and nor will I. I hated how it made me feel and seeing the look on DS's face. And it didn't work. He still did it for a while after. Our best punishment atm is to take away his favourite toy (usually Thomas) and this seems to work everytime. Like you said though, older generation seem to favour smacking. My nan has said about smack on the hand or legs etc. I have told her this is not what we are doing, not that she would smack my DS anyway but the older generation don't understand changing times.