to think that "Do Not Resuscitate" procedures are just Euthanasia in disguise?

[LadyBlaBlah]

My dad was poorly with cancer. He had been given about a year to live. Unfortunately he got pneumonia. As soon as he was admitted into hospital with the pneumonia, a big red form was thrust onto us saying "Do Not Resuscitate", and so this meant that in the case of cardiac arrest, they would not intervene. The form was placed in the front of his notes, in full view of all (including my dad)

I am amazed this is legal.

The doctors said to us that it would be cruel etc to resuscitate someone whose body was so weak and I get that. But is that not a decision that doctors should take at the time of a cardiac arrest? And not something that needs to be defined so definitely before it happens?

For me, it is just a form of euthanasia. AIBU ? And possibly emotional?

x posts with others saying the same thing - sorry! took me ages to find the right thing to say

sorry meant to say will not help

goerdie, i understand how you feel - i was upset about my dad having no food and water for five days when he died. I still have a niggle in my heart that i should have said, no, restore the drip please, but looking back, my dad wasn't concious, he was "out of it" and not suffering at all - my mum was able to wet his lips with a little sponge thing. My dad never regained coinciousness which i suppose he would have done if food was administered but for what? he was in a living hell - i often wish he would have woken up while i was there but he was "gone" already with the alzheimers which had destroyed him. So it would have been very selfish of me i suppose to try and achieve this. It woudlnt have been a last chance to say goodbye as he didnt even recognise me anymore

I would have been horrified had he been rescuscitated tbh.

I think that in lady's case, this was handled badly in the way in which it was communicated, disgusting that it was put on your dads notes for him to see, and there are unanswered questions re the operation.

HCPs really need to communicate more sensitively at some times

I think that not resucitating someone who has a good chance of surviving is Euthanasia not those who are in effect on their last legs and the invevitable will happen shortly. Of course the Drs have to inform the family of their decision but at the end of the day they have to do the best that they feel for the patient.

cpr is physically demanding upon the pt,esp someone already frail and ill

dnar isnt a form of euthanasia, it is a clinical decision as to the efficacy of cpr for that individual.that the procedure may not work or may cause harm

the reason dnar is so clearly documented prior to any cardiac crisis is to acknowledge the concerns that it may be contra-indicated.and needs to be made clear prior to any need for cpr

this is a really harrowing time for you

If it is any comfort, research shows that when food and drink are withheld in terminally ill patients, natural endorphins are released which make the patient more comfortable.

Thank you all. It is really good to get the information and input from you all - it is a harrowing time and I am not sure I am seeing it right. I think I am not angry about the DNR per se, because no, I would not have wanted him to have to go through what that entails, especially after what he had been through already, BUT it WAS communicated horrifically and was very disrespectful, and was very indiscretely left out on the top of his notes right in front of him on VARIOUS occasions - that was just sloppy.

Lady - from you last post; I really think you need to talk to someone at the hospital. Make a list of the things that are angering you/ concerning you. Discuss them with other members of your family if you feel that is pertinent. If you feel that anything was wrong/ lacking in the care of your father - then write into the chief executive of the hospital trust. They have to respond (although they will need the next of kin to give permission to releasing this info to you, just incase you are not the next of kin)

Can I also ask? Were you in daily / regular contact with your fathers medical team? Or were you slightly removed from it all and having information relayed to you by another family member?

The reason I ask is that when my father initially went into hospital - the feedback I was getting from my mother was very confusing and made the medical teams looking after him seem incompetant. Once I actually got there and met with the doctors directly, a lot of the decisions they were making made total sense.

Finally - A lot of the posters have mentioned this. But your father could have had a private conversation with his care team - expressly requested a DNR and also told them that they were not to tell you he had requested it. Patient / doctor confidentiality would have prevented them from telling you even that.

I really urge you to speak to someone.

Oops x -posted. By last post, I meant the one about the operation going wrong...

Thanks again - it is helping to talk it through

Mistle - I was there every day and communicated first hand with the doctors.

And I know it is possible that he could have spoken to the doctors privately, but really truly I doubt he did. The reason he died (in all honesty) is that he discharged himself from one hospital so he could get to another hospital to get his chemo (if he did not discharge himself he would have missed the treatment) and he knew that his only chance of any survival was getting the chemo.

However, it was a bad decision and the pneumonia had weakened him so much, he collapsed. BUT he was shouting for help even then. He definitely wanted to live and would have been horrified by the DNR

Justabout - I am sorry for your dad and hope he can get some quality of live for the time he has left

Friend of a friend - a wheelchair user had this happen to her. Woke up from an operation to find one of these at the end of her bed WITHOUT her permission and absolutely against her wishes. Disgraceful.

Oh Lady. Sounds truly awful. I am so sorry.

My father held on for much longer than the docs expected him too, but towards the end, we all knew that he was ready to go. And I think that gives us a closure that you are finding difficult to get. I dont really know what else to say to you.

Are you getting any counselling in RL??

Now I think that if I 'woke up' to find a DNAR on my notes I would think - "Have I been THAT unwell? Perhaps I should find out what has been going on and maybe think about what I would want another time?"

Just another view .

am sorry that your dad is terminally ill and that you had to find out about his resuscitation status in this way. In palliative care patients it is fairly standard procedure not to have active intervention in the event of a cardiac arrest - ie let nature take its course. this is far removed from euthanasia were the patient is actively choosing when and where to end their life.

you must also remember that the chances of a successful resuscitation will be seriously reduced by his underlying illness. As previous posts say, it is better to know how to react in the event of a cardiac arrest rather than put out an arrest call and have your dad go through all the indignity of attempted resus when it would not change the outcome.

The consultant has the ultimate decision regarding a resuscitation status although it is normal practice to discuss with the patient and their family