to be shocked but not surprised when a teacher says "With children where English isn't spoken at home... not much you can do?"

[toilettrouble]

This Times blog why I hate my child's school

is a rant about what I presume is a typical primary in South London. But read the last bit!

I went to a school where I was taught in 'foreign', as were the 29 other people in my class, none of whom had the school's language as their first one. No one, but no one, expected any the less of us.

Do you think that racism is just an excuse for poor teaching?

"Would my child be disadvantaged in learning to write Spanish/German/Italian/French? Probably yes. I'm shamefully monolingual."

But would they be disadvantage if you spoke a language other than English at home, and most of their English use was outside the home - ie they were bi-lingual? If they'd grown up with that?

I don't think children of monolingual parents suffer when they start learning foreign languages because of it - again it all come down to the quality of he teahing at school and the attitude of the parents at home (IMO)

My children are taught in Gaelic. Me and dh have no Gaelic (well I am learning from the kids a bit now).

So they are in school all day in a language I can't understand. They are all fluent!! And just as fluent in English (reading/writing and speaking for dd1 and ds, just speaking for now for dd2 as they haven't started teaching that to them in school yet).

Children are good at languages. Even if the language is never spoken at home.

THese kind of comments in the article just make me .

My dd has a small class, but of the 24 of them, there is a Finish child, Brazilian child, 2 russians and a Polish child. So that is about a fifth of the class.

They all started school at four (3 years ago) in September and the teacher said that by January of the next year none of them needed extra English classes.

BUT that amazed me. At four years old, it takes just four months to catch up with the childre whose parents speak Englsih at home.

I agree with hardhat, I think the problems come later. I know my mother would have been leaning over my homework saying 'definite not definate'. He gave it to John and me, not to John and I. It is hard for a foreigner to correct these mundane but common mistakes.

yes but its the teacher's job to correct those mundane but common mistakes....

I know a lot of English speakers (including teachers I have worked with) who can't correct those "common mistakes"!

Oh please, that's not racist.
There are lots of children who come from homes/communities where they don't have daily contact with english speakers pre or post school.
As adults, thier English still leaves a lot to be desired.
Not the schools fault at all, the parents should learn English in order to support their child's education.

i wouldn't send my child to a school where a high % of pupils had English as a second (or even 3rd language)....if it was my only choice i'd go private..

thier English.....?

mrsruffalo - what about those families where the parents speak excellent English (when required) but speak in their mother tongue at home?

I know quite a few "English" people from "English "families whose English leaves a lot to be desired.........

And you know - this is off topic a bit - but when the millions of British expats around the world all make a proper effort to learn the local language and speak it at home then we may have a case for a having a "go" at the "foreigners" living here.

Sorry to offend you Tante Rose, I am writing in a hurry as doing several things at the same time
Always better to comment on errors than content though eh?
Makes for a much more interesting discussion than tackling issues

"i wouldn't send my child to a school where a high % of pupils had English as a second (or even 3rd language)....if it was my only choice i'd go private.."

So in other words you'd immidiately think that their 2nd or 3rd language wasn't spoken well then? You do realise there are 1000's of families living in the UK who are extremely fluent in English - probably as fluent as in their mother tongue - but who would put English as the 2nd language?

yeah but its a thread about English....

any child who goes through the school system of a country will come out speaking the majority language just fine. The adults you refer to will have had their education in their home countries.

Oh god is this where we are going alfa? (groans)
I wouldn't move to another country if I couldn't speak the language mainly because I wouldn't be able to support them educationally e.g homework, mathematical/scientific language etc.

I am not having a go at all foreigners. It is so boring to assume I am.

I have friends who speak their mother tongue at home with their children but they have excellent english indeed and this helps them when it comes to parents evenings, homework etc

If you can't read with your child at home then surely they are at a disavantage

and lets not forget about this assumption that any adult moving to a foreign country can easily learn the local language. Some of us are NOT linguists. I spent 4yrs trying to learn Shona, my IL's would frequently speak to me only in Shona to try and help me.

One day my oldest SIL turned round to me and said (in English) "ALFA you're never going to "get" it are you - lets just stick to English" .

Just because a parent doesn't appear to speak good/improving English won't necessarily mean that they're not supporting and encouraging their child to learn it well.

That's not true TanteRose

And thank you daftpunk, I had a bet on how long it would be before you waded in with a comment like that.

The parental attitude does have some bearing. I worked for many years in a FE college in an area with a high number if immigrants. I frequently had classes where 9 or 10 languages were spoken. If this was a good mix of languages then the student's generally had fairly good English because they were forced to communicate in their only common language i.e. English. If, however, the class was 60% or more from a common linguistic background, then it was a nightmare. Why bother to communicate in English when it was easier to converse in their native language? The students were not forced to speak English and the rule that within the classroom only English must be spoken was routinely flouted. It was a complete nightmare. These students, despite being born and educated solely in England had very poor spoken and written English. They were not, if the truth be told, particularly fluent in either language. They tended to speak a patois of English/native language and had real trouble making themselves understood on trips home to their own country. Now while this was fine if they stayed within the confines of their community, their language skills in both languages were so poor that most of them are severely disadvantaged in the workplace. All of the advantages of bilingualism were wiped out by the attitude, common amongst the parents as well, that if it didn't matter in the community then it wasn't an issue for the rest of their lives. A problem of small horizons all round.

Just to add fuel to the flames, they were encouraged to learn to read a language that none of them spoke. This was considered far more important, in terms of extra lessons and support, than learning to read English properly.

you know my FIL's English is still pretty broken - despite it being on of the "official" languages in his home country.

It hasn't stopped 5 of his children getting degrees, one of them a Phd, or doing other courses that involve a lot of scientific/mathematical stuff.

And I guess my children are screwed really - DS1 is in YR4 - and already being bamboozled by his homework - so instead I encourage him to sit down and do it - I'm certain by the time he reaches YR6 I won't be able to "help" him at all. But I'll still be able to support him.

Just like my mum (also hopeless with languages) supported my German that I learnt at school (all since forgotten - although I did well at the time)).

"They tended to speak a patois of English/native language and had real trouble making themselves understood on trips home to their own country"

I'm sort of lost for what to say about that - how sad that not only could they not converse well in English but their main language was also not of a standard to be any use to them further than their own community

So you would have been happy with your children being taught in Shola and not being able to communicate with the teacher on parents evening for example?
If it was the case that you and your husband spoke no Shola at all I mean?

Shona! sorry, as I said doing this on the run a bit

i think it's great if you can speak different languages....my DC are learning German & French...brilliant..!

what i wouldn't want is my 5 year old, who would just be starting out in school life, being surrounding by other 5 yr olds who can barely string a sentance together in English...that would hold him back imo.

if it had been the case that neither of us spoke Shona, and they were taught solely in that language then I would make damn sure I took someone along with me who could speak Shona for parents evenings (presuming our own attempts at learning Shona to some degree had failed) - it wouldn't have stopped me supporting my children learning at home and having the right atmosphere about learning.

Much of DH's generation grew up with parents who could speak little or no English - but taught in schools that taught in English.

Some of the children I taught out there had non-English speaking parents. It was obvious which ones were supported at home and which ones weren't though.

Much the same as in English speaking families it's quite easy to spot which children have "support" with their learning at home and which parents don't give a damn.

Sorry I don't understand alfa
How can you teach in a school in Englasand if you don't speak English/
And I bet that if there was as many free courses for you to learn Sholas asthere ESOLs than you would have taken advantage of them.

I am not saying that everyone has to speak perfect English but I do think that their lives would be enhanced in as much as employment opportunities and involvement in children's education is concerned if they were able to at least communicate in it.
Don't you think so? To advice otherwise is surely counter productive

MaggieBelle Wed 25-Nov-09 13:06:51

"I agree with hardhat, I think the problems come later. I know my mother would have been leaning over my homework saying 'definite not definate'. He gave it to John and me, not to John and I. It is hard for a foreigner to correct these mundane but common mistakes."

Ime it is far easier for a foreigner to spell 'definite' correctly than for a native English speaker: most other languages differentiate in the pronunciation of unstressed syllables, making correct spelling more likely. Usually native speakers who make that particular mistake ime.

As a foreigner, I have to proof-read dh's papers for unstressed-syllable spelling mistakes. I can see the difference, he can't. And having been educated in a country where being taught 5 foreign languages at state school is not unusual, I would be unlikely to make any mistakes involving the difference between subject and object, as in your second example. "Foreigner" doesn't have to spell "under-educated".

I would say that any child will be disadvantaged if its parents are not into reading, or have a negative attitude towards education, feel ill at eased in society or do not talk much (in any language).

But having high quality conversations in the minority is an advantage when it comes to reading in the majority language. Or else, how explain that my dcs English took a bound forwards every time we spent the summer holidays in Sweden? It always used to puzzle the childminder, but I knew it was because their minds were expanded, and the English followed suit,

Daftpunk - you're missing my point.

Just because someone ticks the box to say that English is their 2nd language doesn't mean they can't speak it well already. It can quite simply mean that of the languages that they can speak English isn't considered their "mother" tongue.

And if you think that a 5yr old being surounded by children who "can barely string a sentence together in English" is going to hold them back

a) you'd obviously have very little faith in the school to be able to teach well - presuming you're talking about being held back at school and to have provisions for ESL.

b) you'd be assuming that children who can't all speak the same language as each can't play together - if ou're talking about being held back socially.

I can assure you that a 5yrs old language is no barrier to playing together - they can still get up to all sorts of mischief without uttering a word