In wanting to make disability hate crimes as illegal and unaccepatable as race hate crimes?

[sickofsocalledexperts]

After watching Rosa Monkton's programme last night, on families coping not only with severely disabled children, but also with feral hooligans shouting abuse at them, punching them, throwing bricks through their windows and making their lives a misery - unchecked by police or law - can I ask if mumsnetters would join me in outlawing disablity hate crimes?

Just possibly it might stop another case happening like that poor poor Fiona Pilkington's, where she burned herself and her disabled daughter to death in a car rather than continue to face abuse from unparented, ignorant youths who had been making their lives a misery for years. And then again last week, where a mother of a long-bullied special needs teenager died saving his life from a fire, caused by the bullies putting a firework through her door! And they watched as she burned to death!

Now it is happening again with a bunch of kids making Asher Nardone and her family's life a misery in Poole, Dorset. Whoever is "mothering" the children who daily hurl abuse at Asher's terribly disabled child, and his brother, should be stripped of the title mother. She's just babysitting the next generation of ciminals in my book. Please ask politicians and lawmakers to say no to disablity hate crimes, to offer real penalities for them, and to help protect our most vulnerable members of society from those with least humanity.

Pagwatch, I agree at the moment a lot of society doesn't give a a shit, but there is an election coming up and it just might be that the politicians choose to try and be/look like the good guy on this issue and bring in some new penalties. Even if just one little shit got punished for what he's shouted at a disabled kid day-in-day-out, I'd feel like we'd achieved something.

Ascottishmummy - I am sure that ideally that is what we would all strive for - no categorising, but at the moment I think we have to.

Look at yobs terrorising a family (whether disabled/vulnerable or not) and nothing is done, and then take a race or homophobic crime.

It is not a nice thing to admit on our "forward" society, but unfortuantely that ARE treated differently.

If we have to achieve winning the war against terrorising-bullies by singling out each group that is attacked, and dealing with them individually then that is what we have to do. As long as steps are made...

you are right sickofsocalledexperts.

And I posted it last night whilst the programme was on, but I thought (from an outsiders POV as I have one NT DS) that it was filmed and handled with care and honesty.

Well done to BBC1 and Nina, and of course sickofsocalledexperts for rallying us!

I'm supporting you too, sickof

I agree in principle to what you are talking about but feel that you have to decide what you want.

Yes, disability hate crimes should be just as much a taboo as race hate crimes. And they should be punishable as such.

And it should be made clear that using language like 'special' or 'retard' is not acceptable and should not be tolerated.

I think that starting to talk about the yobs parents and boot camps is taking it too far, and you run the risk of scaring off people who would otherwise support you.

Language changes through time - different words are or are not acceptable as society moves on. Its difficult to classify words as legal or illegal. Its more about the thought and intention behind the language.

Some disability hate can be more subversed, in that its not always open viciousness, but things like being made to feel guilty for using blue badges for children, and thats usually nasty stares from (walking) OAPs who obviously think these spaces are reserved for them, not me and my (non-walking) child.

Other times its straight out nastiness, jeering, name-calling, physical violence.

I agree about the language changing all the time and not being able to make specific words illegal.

But words like 'nigger' or 'paki' are not in themselves illegal. The use of these kinds of words are thankfully not seen as acceptable anymore.

And usage of them during a crime makes it clear that it was a racially motivated crime with higher penalties.

Would you not call them yobs, or send them to prison or a boot camp, for posting a firework through a woman's door, chanting abuse at her learning difficulties son and then shouting "shame shame shame " as the mother burned to death, without lifting a finger to help. What other word is there MmeLindt? I am not trying to be offensive, I am just angry on behalf of all mothers of disabled kids (of which I am one)

yes they are yobs and monsters(not animals) I have no sympathy for them and do belive prison is the only place for them and their like.

Working with the CPS at the moment to see if we can improve disability hate crime prosecution rates by making it more possible for disabled people to access justice.

Having been on the receiving end of violence, sexual abuse, defrauding, hate mail and extensive bullying at various points in life because of my own disability, it's a cause close to my heart.

A huge problem is that those most likely to be on the receiving end of this type of bullying may also be those least likely to be confident enough to seek help.

and least likely to be able to access a court, or a police interview, or be believed, or afford a lawyer, or be able to cope with the million-page Legal Aid process (I exaggerate, only slightly)

Someone else quoted that great line the other day on mumsnet - (I don't know exactly the words but...)

"let a society be truly judged by how it treats those least able to help themselves".

"Just 141 incidents classified as having a disability element were
successfully prosecuted in 2007/8,
compared to 6,689 racial incidents"

From the report on disability hate crime atwww.timetogetequal.org.uk/page.asp?section=90&sectionTitle=Hate+crime

There are over 8 million disabled people in the UK.

Do we believe that only 141 of them had a disability hate crime happen? It just shows the level of disinterest and disadvantage that has been present so far

The actions described in the programme last night "shouting abuse... punching them, throwing bricks through their windows..." are surely crimes in any case, regardless of who the victim(s) might happen to be. It's about time people behaving in such ways were dealt with appropriately.

I don't agree with the concept of "hate crimes" however. If we are to have equal justice for all, then I think all victims (and criminals, for that matter) should be treated equally. I don't accept that a crime is (necessarily) worse because its victim ia a member of a minority group. For example, if the behaviour described above were directed at an elderly person, should that somehow be automatically deemed to be less serious than it would be if directed at a disabled person, and treated as such by the police and legal system in general?

I am with you. If we have to shout about disability crimes - I'll shout. Racist crime, I'll shout. OAP crimes, I'll shout too. Any crime against those who may be more vulnerable due to whatever circumstance.

Those who experience this sort of crime and are not vulnerable may not need me to shout for them - they will be empowered and able to do the shouting for themselves. However, if they do need me - I have a gob allmighty
It's all good, moving society in the right direction. I'll shout.

This does not assume all disabled/SN people are vulnerable and never have a voice or feel disempowered by default. It is not always the way of things. Same goes for all those who may be targeted.

However, on balance and at the risk of pigeon holeing and so on, I'll shout.

There is already a section in the Crime and Disorder Act which states that courts should give an uplifted sentence to people who are found to have committed offences motivated by hostility to someone on the grounds of their disability. The same applies to offences motivated by hostility based on someone's presumed homosexuality.

Sickofsocalledlots of variants of that quote, I like 'Mahatma Ghandi said, "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members."
but also I do think more peopleshould be imprisoned for these crimes(whoever the traget group is), and once our prisons arefull up wemight do something about it as a society-
Dostoevsky reportedly said that "The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."
Well maybe uif the prisons actually held these peoplewecould judge?

Is acrime directed at a minority worse? depends on how you defineworsereally. Minorities who are not specifically targeted with action suffer a lack of power,so yes it is worse to harm someone who does not have the power to retalliate, absolutely- is that not a key concept shared by the hatred of such things as child abuse? But also.... aminority is always at risk: not just of this sort of thing,look at the big humanitarian catastrophes and how minorities were tragetted. By allowing people to target small, powerless groups we havd the power to the mob. And the reverseside is that minority- targetting crimes also are potentially changeable.If you ahve a bully going about throwing fireworks at every person, you have nothing to work with bar that persons mentality. If he or she only aims at a certain target then you have a means of getting in there, finding out why, what mythgs are being traded etc..... look at the crap surrounding anti-Semitism and rcism..... so many myths and stories about lack of intelligence, humanity, the potential to rape your child /eat your child (that was actually a very early anti semetic myth....)

So what we need to know now is what myths there are about our kids; behavioural dificulties bieng attahced to all Sn is undoubtedly one, and that resources come entirely from the chool pot another. Tackle those and you might start to make a difference.

scarletlilybug, the effect on us is often more serious because we are often more likely to struggle to cope with crime and may be very much more badly affected by it.

Also, a person who deliberately targets someone who is more vulnerable is committing a bigger crime by doing so. Same principle as if they deliberately went up to your little child in the street and threw a brick at their head. You'd probably expect that they would be treated more harshly than if they did it to a big strapping man who was equally aggressive towards them, even if it's the same brick thrown in the same way. The child has no way to fight back, may be more badly injured because of their difference in size/physical build, and may be really really terrified.

There is often a difference, and vulnerable people do need more protection from the law.

Not all disabled people count as vulnerable. Not all would be more frightened and suffer longer term effects afterwards. But many are, and do.

Yes Pippi there is, the point I think Amber made is that it isn't used- whether people don't report, police don't utilise or most likely a mixture....

Sickofsocalledexperts
Yes, I do call the yobs, and worse and of course I condemn them for their actions.

My hesitation is more of a practical one.

What can be done, and where do we start?

We start by making people aware of the crimes that go on and by challenging the friend who says, 'He is a total retard' in the same way we would challenge someone who used racially offensive language.

First we must make the public aware of the offences that are going on. In the same way that calling someone a 'darky' became unacceptable in the 1970s.

And this is, IMO a seperate issue to the punishment of those who commit the crimes, no matter what the motivation behind the crime was.

If your idea is to start a protest group to push forward your ideas then you have to decide what your objectives are.

From the Crown Prosecution Service report on Disability Hate Crime:

8 out of every 100 disabled people suffered a violent attack during one year, compared with only half that number for non-disabled people. Research says "The attacks have a major impact on disabled people. Around a third have had to avoid specific places and change their usual routine. One in four has moved home as a result of the attack."

Mencap says 9 out of 10 people with a learning disability have experienced bullying, and 1 in 3 experience bullying on a daily or weekly basis.