to think many parents who send their children to the lower quality independent schools are so pretentious it is cringeworthy?

[Barrelofloves]

Is it due to insecurity? Because I have found the seriously loaded/titled folk are not like that at all.

Xenia, I cannot believe some of the things you say on here , other than that .

Oooooh, the "lower qualiity" "independent" schools, don't you know.

Does this include St Cake's (Motto: Quis Paget, Entrat)?

yes, Lily and UQD, full of the kind of people who Just Don't Know Their Place.

Don't they realise that no money in the world will buy them the elan, class, taste and sophistication they so avidly crave? Its genetic. Doncha know.

However they might possibly have worked out that based on stats there kids are statistically likely to get better exam results even at a "lower quality" independent school. Dman them and their arriviste notions!

You certainly need to beware of some of the lesser boarding schools which have had to fill places. Now I love the racial and religious mix you get at schools like Habs but a I know of one or two boarding schools where 80% of one class might be from, say, China and then your own child can feel a bit left out and plenty of boarding schools where just about anyone who applies gets a plaec and they cannot fill all their places and indeed the not so good private schools.

If you believe in competition (and our species is here because of survival of the fittest - it's how we're made and why we survive) then you probably accept that the better people emerge at the top from a competitive process. Thus grammar schools work and most comps stream. I don't why anyone accepts mixed ability primaries for example. Just holds back clever children and means those with low IQs suffer too and those in the middle are neglected and not stretched.

Well our state school has many children from professional households. They are not all children of the milk man. I was there with a DD of one of the richest families in the area. You would know their company it's a household name.

The local children who go to the private school that I know are from families who have made a few quid in trade, lower quality restaurants for instance. I think it's more about the uniform than exam results tbh in some cases.

I very much doubt I would seek out a comprehensive school in the UK - here in France I am surrounded by state comprehensive schools (the DSSs are at a state comprehensive collège) and am pretty dissatisied by their experience! And as I am very keen on children studying modern languages, I would specifically seek out a school that was good at teaching them - in the UK, independent schools have a better track record than state schools for modern languages.

As to "what might have been" - I have no idea.

Xenia - did you not look at the data that I prepared for you .

When talking about 'the best', is it not useful to compare the best of the state schools with the best of the independent schools? If you do just that you will see that there is a nice 50:50 split with 25 out of the top 50 schools independent and the other 25 state schools.

Your comment about 50% of Oxbridge entrants sounds about right if you consider that only the best schools will send their pupils in that direction.

Absolutely M.Defarge!!!!

I am outraged by Xenia's posts. We could have afforded to send our children privately. Xenia has rather succinctly shown why we have chosen not to.

If any of my DCs were to grow up with attitudes like that, frankly I would be ashamed.

(PS My DCs all attend top state schools, top universities and speak nicely . They do not look down on any other strata of society)

I think we all know by know the three things that get Xenia going

1. Private schools
2. Women not striving ( and being able) to earn at least 100K a year are betraying other women
3. Regional accents are pernicious and divisive and must be stamped out. Now.

I'm much more concerned about sexism, particularly at home within couples which is more of a problem than at work these days, than I am about the other issues.

I did look at those stats. Many more children go to state schools than private and yet private schools get most of the best results and places at the better universities. Obviously it depends what exams you count - go into many state schools and they do subjects good schools don't. You need to look at who does maths, physics, modern languages and discount a levels in the rubbishy subjects some state schools go in for.

I don't think anyone in this family looks down on anyone but there's a pecking order in all societies even in the jungle. Someone has the better penis gourd or stronger arms than someone else. It's how we're made. Thus parents want their chidlren in the best not the worst schools and tend to prefer it if the child does reasonably well in society's terms afterwards.

The good thing about the internet is that you get a chance to see views which are different from yours and are glad we live in a country where we aer still allowed (just) to voice them. That will not remain the case unless we all fight for that - for the right of those whose views we abhor to express them.

Private schools do not get most of the best results - they get about half of them if you just consider the top 50 schools.

You may have something about the subjects although I imagine that those schools in the top 50 would have a similar curriculum - I could be wrong. Some private schools (not the best) I do know for sure offer softer subjects.

Sexism at home with couples is an interesting banner to wave. Is it something you have direct experience of or something you have observed? Is it the plight of the subdued wife who has be duped into thinking she is doing something incredibly worthwhile at the expense of her career that worries you .

"Private schools do not get most of the best results"

I think what Xenia is saying is that private schools get a disproportionate amount of the better results.

As other posters have said, a lot of independents don't actually submit results to the league tables because they have abandoned gsce's as being too easy. A point of view I have some sympathy with - just because the state system is dumbing down doesn't mean that the better schools have to do the same, does it?

Xenia you do have some rather unusual opinions (or perhaps you just have the guts to express them)!
You seem to be saying the private school are better because they achieve better exam results and a higher percentage of Oxbridge entrants are privately educated. That strikes me as a v simplistic way to assess the system. There are so many factors that could be causing this difference and, in addition, A level results and Oxbridge entrance seem again a simplistic and narrow measure of 'success'. Frankly, once you have worked in 'the real world' for a few years, all of this is pretty irrelevant. I would also suggest that some of the Oxbridge entrances from private schools are on the basis of family contacts. I know that this happens as I have seen examples.
There do seem to be some contradictions in what you have written. You say that women (presumably men too) should get a job which is highly paid and not mess about in the arts and you also say that you say that you sent your children to Habs because they gave a better 'all round' education. These two statements seem to be a little at odds. It also seems to suggest to me that your values are a little odd (or at least different to my own). This may have had an impact on your children, making them less 'all rounded'.
A lot of the highest paid jobs have no moral benefit at all- look at all the bankers and investment managers, some of whom have managed to ruin our economy due to their personal greed. I would have far more respect for a talented artist, scientist or musician (despite the fact that they wouldn't be able to afford private schooling for their children). I would encourage my children to excel and would hope that their school which discover their abilities and be able to stretch them. I would hope that they are able to have fulfilling careers. I will certainly not be instilling in them the great importance of earning huge amounts of money whether for themselves or for their future children.
Somebody, I think it may have been you,also mentioned streaming at primary school level or selective schools. This sounds like a potentially harmful idea. To label a child as "failing' at 5 or 7 years seems destructive. It is also far to young to make decisions on academic or other potential. My children attend a state primary which happens to have a well above average intake of children with special needs. I think of this as a positive as it helps the other children to accept and understand people's differences at a very young age rather than fear or judge them.
I am not anti private schooling at all but would make the decision on a variety of factors. OP- I think you can get judgmental parents in all sectors!

I agree Quattro.

But those children at state schools which are dumbing down, and most certainly some are, don't have a choice do they??? It doesn't mean to say they should be treated with the contempt that some privately educated people have for them, assuming they are 'thick' etc.

quattro your phrase 'dumbing down' could be quite offensive to some.
Also, there are plenty of less intelligent children in private schools too. They just happen to have better off parents.

Private schools do not get a disproportionate amount of better results if you compare like with like i.e. the best state schools with the best independent schools. If the top 50 schools were all independent then you could make that argument.

I am aware that my argument is not based on probability and that you are more likely to find a good independent school than you are to find a good state school BUT some state schools can and do rise to the heights afforded by the best independent schools that money can buy. So there .

Private schools are not the solution for all children.

I went to one for a short while and it was certainly not crammed full of bright children. It had a few bright children and the rest were just coached into passing exams which made their results look v good. If you measure success as passing exams then I suppose you would say that private schools were successful. If you measure success by getting into Oxbridge, then you would say private schools were successful.

if you stopped and looked around you, you'd probably find that you have a lot of people who are perfectly happy and doing fine in life who went to state school and the older I get, the more I think that your family background and general conditions at home as a child and the aspirations you had as a child have a lot more to do with your happiness and success in life than your school.

I have interviewed plenty of kids from private school who were totally and utterly clueless about real life and the way it works. If you are not bright anyway and you get spoon fed through school, it does make life hard for you when you get out into the big wide world and have to start doing things for yourself.

"quattro your phrase 'dumbing down' could be quite offensive to some."

Obviously I expressed myself badly. The fact is that GCSE's are very easy exams. They fail to sort out the wheat from the chaff and get simpler every year.

Now this is a failing of the state system and therefore I think it is reasonable to say that it is dumbing down. Many independent schools have gone the route of following more rigorous exams. I think it's important that they do. We cannot afford for our population to get deskilled - we are competing in a global marketplace nowadays.

thedolly, do your state figures break down into which proportion of state schools are grammar and which are comps?

it definitely is dumbing down - it is silly

ds went to an interview last week and at the talk to ALL applicants the lecturer spoke of 3A's being a 'low offer'

You need to come to North London lequeen. Xenia and any number of others could set you straight.

ROFL @ amazingly blinkered attitude. Brilliant

LeQueen, I can confirm your neat categories fail miserably in SE London as well.

Quattro- I had slightly misunderstood your meaning. I do agree with you that GSCEs and some A levels are easy exams and do not sort the 'wheat from the chaff' in the same way they used to. I don't see why state schools are responsible for this though. It has been the system for many years now and, as far as I know, most private schools have used this system until recently. I would assume that it must be much harder for state school to change the way in which the examine as they are unable to regulate themselves independently as private schools can. Universities, etc will need to find an effective way of identifying the very best candidates from both the state and private sector.