to be a bit fed up with ds's friend's mum who has not addressed the stealing, even if only small things?

[pofacedandproud]

Am I being petty? Ds, 5, doesn't have a huge amount of toys, though probably more than this friend, though they are middle class and academic. Lately, every time the [very sweet] little girl comes over, she takes something home, hidden in her pocket. I found out when she produced a gadget ds had 'lost' a while back and said it was hers - ds was upset as it was the same as the one he had lost, but I didn't want to jump to conclusions. the next time she came when her mum came to pick her up she had her hands in her pockets and I teased her about her hands and her mum was there, and her mum looked, and she had taken two of ds's cars. I am not cross with the girl, the poor thing burst into tears and hid under the table and I felt awful, the only way I could get her to come out from the table and stop crying was to give her a kinder egg with a toy, which felt a bit weird, rewarding her for taking stuff, but the mum's behaviour annoyed me. She told her off but very quickly, and did not explain why you shouldn't take other children's things. I have asked the mum to bring back this gadget ds loved, but she has never brought it back. The same mum brings her ds, 3, over too [NT] who literally destroys ds's toys, drops them from heights and pulls them apart, and the mum says nothing.

I like the mum otherwise, should I have a straight conversation with her? Should I stop being petty? Ds has had so many toys broken by her ds, and now is getting toys [small ones] taken away, it gets a bit stressful having them over. Am I being awful?

I would have a chat with the little girl when she next comes over. Explain that you and your DC like having her over but that she mustn't take anything without asking. Focus on telling her how it makes you/DC feel, i.e. sad, upset, worried. Ask her why she does it in a sensitive way - maybe she can explain it a bit herself? Also ask about the little gadget that hasn't been brought back. Don't blame her - just ask in a wondering sort of way. There are obviously complex things going on with her and if her mum isn't addressing the stealing then I as the host definitely would - in a sensitive way. You can tell the mum about the chat afterwards - maybe focusing on your own/DCs feelings about her child's behaviour will make her feel less crap about her own parenting. As for breaking toys - I never tolerate that if we have kids over and will have the same kind of chat with other people's kids as I will with my own, including in their parents' presence if they don't say anything. Your house - your rules. You don't have to be rude about it - just calm and clear about the boundaries of behaviour when they are at yours. Also talking to the children directly might help the mum get the message without embarrassing her.

agree with keeping them downstairs and limiting toys.

if the ds goes upstairs tell him not to ad bring him down. i would have no qualms about doing that (in fact, have done it many times here)
iif you don't want to do that then borrow a stairgate from someone and have that up when they visit.

She sounds pretty brazen to me, pofaced. It might sound a bit extreme, but what about putting up a stairgate? If she won't take a hint as strong as you carrying her ds kicking and screaming downstairs, then perhaps she's unlikely to take umbrage at a stairgate.

If I was local to you, I'd come round and stand guard on the stairs for you - the boys tell me I have a very fierce stare and a scary voice - when necessary.

This problem can persist into later years. My daughter has a friend of 10 who will always insist on taking her clothes out of the wardrobe and drawers and trying them on and then leaving them in a heap. It's maddening when it's things that have been washed and ironed.

When my daughter was taking her FHC I actually had to HIDE her white satin dress, veil, shoes and gloves because I knew she'd try them on and they'd end up being paraded round the garden getting muddy or covered in food. I ended up putting them in the airing cupboard, hidden under a winter coat.

Could you lock the bedroom doors, pofaced? Sounds extreme, though, in your own home.

I did wonder that too, abra1d - perhaps a hook high up on the doors. You're right that it's a bit extreme, though.

Your house, you are in charge. If children break toys, you take the toys away. If they want to eat upstairs you go up and make them come down. If they steal you ask the parent to return the item.

Your loyalty is with your ds not with your friend. If she is unwilling to return ds's favourite gadget I would not consider her to be much of a friend.

I am happy to have ds's friends over but if the accompanying parent doesn't tell their dcs off when they have done something wrong I will happily say something. Why would you persist in a friendship that affects your ds so negatively?

Thanks Sunnygirl

Yes love to read the article justa! Is your ds settled at school?

MollieO I suspect she or her dd has lost the gadget. That is what makes it even more galling, she stole something ds really liked and then probably lost it. But I think the fact that she is from a different culture makes it hard for me to gauge what is just a different culture and what is just not on. Recently my ds gave her dd a little toy, a little yellow rabbit, and she was delighted with it, but then her brother showed up, grabbed the rabbit from her, threw it to the ground and stamped on it. And the parents said nothing, didn't even notice. My dh was watching and told me.

No locks on these doors! And a stairgate he would climb over. He is, I regret to say, a rather over indulged little boy, and I feel the daughter is overlooked slightly. I have hinted at this but falls on stony ground.

Obviously it is none of my business, but it is when it infringes on ds.

Ok I'm gonna go slightly against the grain. We are talking about a 5 year old taking things. Obviously this little girl was very upset when she was found out. Lesson learnt hopefully. If she was as upset as you say then surely it makes sense that the mum just wanted to get her out of your house. There is every possibility the mum (who you like) chose to talk to her daughter about stealing in private when she was calmer. I prefer to go explain the morality of situations to my children at home, in private. Its never one conversation either - its lots of little ones every day.

Secondly little children can go nuts with toys. They are in such a hurry to look at other children's toys. I remember this peaking for my son at around 4. Now he is 8 its not something I worry about too much.

Also, I am not bothered if kids come round to play if they get every single toy out and essentially trash the house - if they play happily together. It beats arguing and meanness. If I can hear my children having fun with their friends (as long as its sensible fun) then great. If the kids friendship isn't good then thats an entirely diff thing. Nothing worse than having a friend round and your kids really really dont get on.

It can be a nightmare when you have lots of little ones running around the house playing. I think the suggestion that you meet on neutral territory is a great one. Then neither of you have to clean up or worry.

You like this woman and her kids. I don't think it is a big deal at all. Remind her about the gadget you are missing - I am as forgetful as anything. But don't fall out over it.

yes good points helloall. Though the mum didn't get her out of the house when the cars were discovered, the poo girl ran and hid under the table and would come out for half an hour and the mum just said she was being silly and ignored her. I felt terrible I'd upset her by revealing the theft and then lured her out eventually with a kinder egg. So it was handled badly I think. But yes, important to get it in perspective. We have a small house with small rooms and they get trashed by most of ds's playdates [and ds] but this is on a slightly different scale. You live and learn i suppose.

We actually fitted a little lock on one of our doors. It wasn't a big job but it did mean that the children couldn't get into a room we really didn't want them to be in when we weren't with them.

Thats a great post helloall, I fully agree

I think no matter how much you like the mum you need to stop having her and her off spring in your home

the poo girl? I meant poor girl.

We had problems with other kids constantly breaking toys when DS2 was 4/5. I do try to chill thinking "it's just stuff", but when you have children who respect their belongings and get upset when others don't I think it's right to support them. A lot of DS2's toys had been handed down intact from his brother who is nearly 6 years older. We finally insisted that children stayed downstairs - with less previous/fragile stuff - and stuck to it. Luckily we had a room they could play in, but I'd have been equally happy to sit in the kitchen and let them have the living room.

Like others, I think locks are the way to go. Put a bolt on the outside of your DS's room, high up where the kids can't reach it (cheap and easy) and when they come again say nicely to the mum "we've done a bit of re-arranging upstairs and from now on I'd like the kids to stay downstairs". If her kids do go upstairs they won't be able to get in your son's room, and no doubt you'll be aware of that at which stage you say "do you want to go and tell him/her to come back down or shall I?". If that doesn't work then really, I think it's an adult only friendship or the park!

Impossible I'm afraid! She just wouldn't understand. I think i'm going to have to decide between an adult only friendship or explaining to her why I feel hesitant.

Helloall - yes, that's a very good and insightful post. I well remember the 'trashing' stage - it's stressful but largely survivable. And I agree that the mum might have spoken to her dd at home, or that being caught might have nipped the problem in the bud.

However, the wider problem of the mum's reaction remains. She doesn't back pofaced up when she tries to set limits in her own home (such as no food upstairs), even to the stage of pofaced having to carry a screaming child downstairs. She knows toys have been broken, and doesn't seem to make any effort to get her children to be more careful, nor has she offered to replace the broken toys. She hasn't brought back the toy that was taken either.

Taken together, this is hardly going to help these children come out the other side of these particular phases, and I think there is a big difference between inviting a family to your house knowing that all the dcs will have fun together, and you'll have to do the tidying at the end (having had a nice grown-up time with another mum), and knowing that the guest dcs are going to break toys, unchecked by their mother, and might even take them, and they are unlikely to be dealt with effectively by the mum.

The former is normal when having children round to play in the early years, the latter crosses the line to stressful and unpleasant.

This woman is doing neither of her kids any favours, or teaching them how to behave properly.

In my house, I would speak up if I found a childs' behaviour unacceptable, and in front of the mother if she was there. Coming from a different culture is no excuse, I'm sure in every culture there are punishments for stealing and wilful damage. Would she let them behave like this anywhere else?

Discipline her kids as you would your own because she obviously has no idea, and she could learn from your example. When they first arrive, you talk to the children altogether and explain the rules, no going upstairs, play where we can see you, eating at the table ( or where you choose), if anything gets broken or goes missing they will not be able to come again. Even the 3yo should be able to understand this. Then everyone knows where they stand, including the mother.

Definitely secure rooms and only supply a limited amount of toys, preferably large enough not to be hidden and pinched. You can get extra tall safety gates for dogs, they would keep the 3yo downstairs!But frankly, I would limit the number of visits to your home and only see this family somewhere else at other times. Taking advantage of your good nature and using your home as an entertainment slot for her kids is seriously ill-mannered.

Tell the mum that future play dates need to be on neutral territory as your child's toys are being broken and stolen and this is teaching your DS that his belongings and feelings aren't valuable, when they are. If people don't respect your house how can you teach your children to? It is unfair on your ds and puts you in an awkward position.

Really starting to feel so sorry for the girl as more of your posts go ahead....

I have a little boy who comes over and takes toys and hurls them across the room his sister is DDs best friend. When they arrive now they do to an almost empty room and I keep them in one room. It has really infringed on how the girls play and interact, so I am striggling with this at the moment and reading with interest...

They are essentially good children [well all children are really] I feel sorry for the dd in so many ways - the mum is a bit overweight [not huge] but constantly on a diet, and imposes her food worries onto her dd, won't let her eat bread, only one biscuit, keeps telling her she'll get fat if she eats more, whilst her ds gets to eat anything he wants. I feel more and more that her dd stealing stems from a lack of attention at home, and her ds getting preferred treatment

OMG that is just awful - it sounds like there are a lot of factors behind her stealing , a real inequality there. telling her she will get fat

Has the dd been in trouble for stealing at school, or was she taking another childs things from another home and your friend told you? I'm wondering if her teacher could speak to the mum on a professional basis if it was the former, cos ultimately no-one will invite them to their homes if one child steals and the other trashes the place.
The mum might confide in the teacher if she's struggling.

Not as far as I know. Friend just mentioned she'd been taking books home without asking.