to think that these parents shouldn't allow their 8 year old to make such life changing decisions?

[welshone51]

Hi I recently watched a tv programme called aged 8 and wanting a sex change. The programme mainly centered around two American children born male who wanted to become female and who have lived for the past few years as girls, they grew their hair, wore female clothing and played with mainly female toys. Both sets of parents were extremely supportive, sought help for their children and are now allowing their children to live the lives they chose which is IMO commendable up to a point.
Both children have been diagnosed with a condition called Gender dysphoria which means that the children genuinely believe they are/should be the opposite sex. However many gender experts beleive that a lot of these children may grow out of this condition as puberty develops- The thing is some of these children are going to be given drugs called '' puberty blockers'' which can stunt their growth and leave them completely infertile in order for them not to develop physically into women/men, these drugs are permenant and need to be given to children sometimes as young as 9 or 10 before puberty begins. These drugs arent allowed to be given in the uk until a child reaches the age of 16!! Am I being unreasonable to think that it is potentially dangerous to be giving their small children these drugs or am I not seeing the bigger picture!!

I don't know what to make of the fact that both mothers clearly enjoyed girlifying their children. Boys or girls, how common is it to have highlights and nail varnish at 8?

CheerfulYank: From the age of 6, until 11, I wished I was a boy. I dressed as much like a boy as my mother would allow, did 'boys things' consciously rejeted many 'girls things' and tried to wish myself to be a boy.

But even so, I kind of knew I was a girl who liked boys things, I didn't strongly feel i was 'in the wrong body', just that I didn't relate to the gender constructs for femininity, and don't think i would have wanted to change my name and pretend to BE a boy, or agree to body-changing drugs.

That's the difference between us former 'tomboys' and these children, isn't it? And why i think they must actually be very serious about it.

And it is a condition - not a whim.

Sorry if I go it wrong re the drugs - but they were leaving the start of drugs as late as possible, weren't they?

Blu: You're bang on - there is a huge difference between wanting the trappings of gender (ie socialy constructed stuff) and feeling a total alienation from your own body.

I went through a brief spell of moderate anxiety about DS (haveposted about this before) wanting to be a girl, but am lucky enough to have trans mates to chat to - basically DS is not gender dysphoric as he is so in love with his own willy. So he can play with dolls and paint his nails as much as he likes....

I can't think of a single actual genuine reason why the parents should not let these children go ahead with this.

So what if it is life changing? Why does that matter?

curiositykilled why? Why place so much importance on being fertile? There are enough people ion the world already.

Well, how I feel about it is the children might not be fertile in the end anyway, not all adults are. It's more that it is a separate issue that needs to be considered separately in my mind. AFAIK the effects of these drugs on long term fertility are not really known and need further investigation.

It may be that there is found to be a minimal risk. The gender issues are the ones being treated by the drug. Infertility is a fairly serious side effect and a fairly important issue to most adults. It needs consideration and I feel lots of the issues about in/fertility are only relevant to adults and therefore it would be hard for a child to make an informed choice about how they feel, especially before puberty which is a biological process designed to bring about adult fertility in children.

Right, I totally agree that there is a huge difference between an actual wrong-gender issue and just being a tomboy.

I just think that issues surrounding sexuality/gender are best left to be decided after puberty. I would be very hesitant to let my child make such a huge decision (or any permanent decision really) while still a child.

Until the effects on fertility are clear I feel better to say no to these drugs as the best time to use them is just at the onset of puberty.

There are other drug treatments which are given to children which are known to cause infertility such as cancer treatments but these are given in order to try and prevent death. If a child does no have them their chances of death increase and adult fertility is not an option anyway. They are given in consideration of these side effects by doctors and parents.

I think it needs more investigation before it can be allowed as doctors would be rather unable to consider the risk/reward balance if the risks are not really known.

Curiousity: but transpeople are not fertile after reassignment anyway. Fertility is not the most important thing in the world to a lot of people.

Of course I understand that! What I am saying is that the decision about fertility is a separate issue to the one of gender reassignment, although part of it.

These puberty blockers do not change your sex they are supposed to halt puberty giving a child the option to have an easier integration into a transgendered adult or to stop taking the puberty blockers and to return to their original gender and go through puberty. They buy you time. They are not in fact a sex change.

How could you expect a child to make a decision about their fertility? You need to make complicated decisions about harvesting eggs and freezing sperm before a sex change if you want to try and conceive a genetically related child. It might not turn out to be important or it might end up being a huge issue for the rest of the person's life - especially if they felt they had had the decision taken from them.

It seems to me that at 8 they don't have a gender to speak of yet unless it's imposed by others. I'd want to know how they got the idea. What do they think being a girl/boy IS? If a boy likes gentle games, dolls and soft clothes he doesn't have to have a sex change/drugs to get access to them.

It sounds more like the parents regret what they got and want to change it for another model.

I don't know about yours, but my children have had male and female genitalia since they were born and expressed an interest in said genitalia since they were able. I think children, variably, can have very strong gender identities from a very young age in various ways.

It doesn't have anything to do with what games children do or don't play. I can see it would be rather traumatic to feel you are in the wrong gendered body and gradually grow up becoming more and more aware of the implications of that on the rest of your life.

Onagar: Rubbish. A very ignorant statement, read the rest of the thread: people who are genuinely gender dysphoric feel utterly wrong in their own bodies.

The main thing which grabbed my attention was when the gender experts said that some children can '' grow'' out of this condition- I dont know if this is true or not so dont shoot the messenger- I just feel that if this is the case that the drugs should not be given until later just in case there are children out there who ''' change their minds'' as it were! I am not trying to be controversial I just want to be able to understand this topic more.

welshone - I think the puberty blockers are drugs which enable children to halt puberty so that they are able to make the sex change decision later. From that perspective they would be good because they enable the child to have the benefits of having had a sex change pre puberty without actually having the change at an early age. They let the child have time to decide, possibly even delay the decision till adulthood (I'm not sure how long you can take them).

My problem is with the lack of clarity about the fertility impacts as you know.

I can't imagine allowing DS to take drugs that would have irreversible effects on his future life or choices, but then I haven't lived with a child who has sat alone and cried night after night, afraid to tell me he thinks he is on the worng body. I haven't got a child who takes his feelings out on his body thorugh self-harm, cannot make friends, feels despair about the future. These children and parents are not making this decision from the position we are in. (I assume).

I have had to talk through with my then 6 yo whether he wanted his leg amputated, or to go through treatment for a year that makes most people feel faint to hear described, and can tell you that children are able to make very serious decisions about themselves. And that some parents HAVE to make v big decisions.