To think that if you send DC to independent school or home-ed you should not have to pay for state education?

[valhala]

I think I can see all sides of this debate, which came up amongst a group of friends and I today. The group was about 60% female and was socially quite mixed, with a range of ages, classes and income brackets. The topic of conversation came round to whether, if you do not have your child educated in the state sector but instead opt to home educate or send him to an independent school, you should receive a tax credit to reflect this which could go towards the cost of your choice of schooling.

The state school parents were perhaps the least enthusiastic but by no means did all of them reject the idea, whilst the home-eders had reservations about the cost of this plan in terms of restrictions on how they taught being implemented by a government anxious to tighten up home education law although they agreed that they would like the money to help them do the job themselves (which they told me was on average £5K p.a.) .

Interestingly, some of those who send their children to independent schools were not as anxious to see their money refunded as others - although whether due to social conscience or just being too darn well-off to care, I didn't like to ask!

Out of fascination I thought I'd post the question here - if I say that a tax credit should be paid under these circumstances, AIBU?

I am pretty much in favour of banning all private education, healthcare and so on, as once the rich people have to use the same services as the rest of us, they will make sure they improve. But I would probably provide more choice in the state sector.

My DP had a good point the other day-if things like the classics and latin are so irrelevant to todays children, how come the rich kids in private school still learn them? They seem to do alright career wise! I would ban private education, and try and use the lessons learned in private education about how to get better outcomes for all kids.

Plus I would try and encourage some aspects of home ed, although how I would do this with reluctant parents I have no idea.

My mum once tried the whole "I would rather not pay any taxes and just look after my own family" thing, until I pointed out that, not only does she work for the NHS, her family get an awful lot from the taxpayer, from her elderly parents healthcare to her grandchilds tax credits and surestart facilities. And we can generally walk down the street without being mugged, or tripping over a dead body, or walking through sewage.

We live in a community, if people try and isolate themselves it only leads to trouble.

Even if a whole family educates their children privately for generations, they are still going to be dependent on the state education of other people every day of their lives.

LissyGlitter, I couldn't sgree more re teaching Latin, if not the Classics as well, in ALL schools. I found both of great interest and benefit in later life (although admittedly I adored Latin and had a fantastic, enthusiastic teacher, which was a great bonus).

I home educate and I don't agree.

I HE now but who knows what will happen further down the line. Also, I have family and friends DC's that go to school and am happy to pay into the system for their schooling.

"we pay taxes for society, not for individual gain" exactly. Looking at it as a financial transaction only is missing the point of society and why we live this way - and as cory says so well we live this way because are ALL "going to be dependent on the state education of other people every day"....

Education is not something you can neatly remove from your tax payment because it's absolutely intrinsic to society. If we want to live in a society where we have people who can read, write, run businesses, teach us, nurse us, diagnose us, design all the things we live with from cars to wallpaper to cancer research programmes, then we need to put together and pay for schools.

The higher tax payers might not agree though as many believe that they already contribute enough and/or more than their fair share and that if they pay for their children's education privately they should be "entitled to" (an independent mum's words, not mine) the right not to have to pay for a state system they don't use.

Butterball, in contrast to your own view almost all of the HE parents (which were admittedly few out of the group) did think they should be given a rebate. Their main fear was that they would have greater restrictions put upon the way in which they home educate and more state interference as a pay-off.

but then childless people would expect a rebate, they are paying for a service they never use....it's just not workable...

people who pay for private health care would want a rebate....it's crazy....

but you have some interesting convos..

I think it's fairly likely that at some point in the future a voucher system will be introduced by the Tories. Not policy at the moment though.

The OP is expressed in a 'partial opt-out from taxes' way, which, as others in this thread have noted, just doesn't work. But school vouchers OTOH can be implemented and would amount to the same thing - a discount from your school fees/not paying for state school. Though I can't see any voucher paying the full cost of somewhere like Norland Place (£13k/year), the prep school George Osborne sends his kids too.

I don't think politicans care much about the home educators, so they won't get anything.

valhalla, how do these people get through a day without using other people's state education

just thinking through an average day of my own:

get up and have breakfast- strongly suspect that breakfast foods have been grown, packed, delivered to shop and sold mainly by people relying on their state education to be able to carry out these tasks

received letter through the post- expect postman relies on his state education to read my address

took dcs to school- expect most teachers educated in state system (and that would be true for many teachers in independent schools too); dcs use books which are probably to some extent written by state educated writers; the school secretary, school nurse and TAs are also likely to be state educated

went for a doctor's appointment- one or two of the doctors may be independently educated but not all, and the receptionist probably not

popped round to pharmacy- pharmacist likely to be state educated

popped into Waterstones- where I was served by a state educated shop assistant, bought a book written by a state educated writer- and I'd be very surprised if some state education hadn't gone into the printing and publishing of it too

and so on throughout the day

the society we live on depends on a high number of people being able to read and write- not only the small number whose parents could afford private education

you'd have to maroon yourself on a desert island not to make use of state education

The arguments for such a rebate are unconvincing.

They start from the false premise that the only reason you pay a chunk of tax towards the education system is so that you can take advantage of it for your own children.

YABU. We all benefit from an educated society.

I agree with DP.
State schools provide free education for all. It is availiable to anyone who wishes to utilise it, unlike the private school system.

I have never needed to call the police or fire brigade, but I happy to pay for then through taxes...and so on

Oh, YABVU btw

Rather stupid for the net beneficiaries of society (the affluent middle classes) to resent financing the welfare state. Should realise that this is what is required to keep the impoverished masses quiescent (yes I am pissed)

I get more radical when in my cups

I likes ya drunk then

Cheers! so does everyone else. Sadly am slate grey when sober.

liberal society we pay into communal pot to be redistributed elsewhere.whether or not one directly benefits eg so i have no need for dementia services but my money contributes to it.rightly so

before i had children my tax contributed to that pot too. rightly so.because morally someone else children grow up and contribute,so we invest short term in their education until they contribute

Cory, I'm not arguing with you (or anyone here), as I too see that the case in favour is flawed although I also understand the desire (and in the case of some HE parents the need) for people to spend money targeted on education as they see appropriate.

In my very idealistic world I would like to see ALL children educated as well as those in the better independent schools and HE households - not just academically but socially and morally too. I'd have a far less emphasis on PCC or whatever they call it in your schools, much of which I feel should come from the home, and revert to a system where the emphasis is instead on giving each child a thoroughly solid grounding in standard subjects and good old fashioned manners and respect, whilst still treating each child as an individual.

Sadly I feel that this isn't available to all children in all schools and so I have a certain sympathy with those who are paying twice for their DC's education, however unrealistic their hopes of having a tax credit are.

will pay my fees back gladly when state pays me hours i actually work

think you will find i work over and above my hours.my phone always on-contactable.

I wish I could write something eloquent about education....basically I believe that education makes for a better person. Education is the antithesis of blind prejudice, irrationality and fear ...and the latter are responsible for all the ills in the world. Education makes people question and debate and tends to correlate with a certain open minded flexible approach. Its a public good

Hmmm... not sure hmc. There are plenty of well educated prejudiced folk out there, be they racist, sexist or what-have-you. I'm a great believer in educatio but perhaps don't have as much faith in it to provide the qualities described as you do.

alot of people don't think the tax system is fair..(usually it's about paying to keep people on benefits when they should be working)..

you can't please everyone, but re; paying twice for education, that's a choice you make...the state will provide education for your child and in the vast majority of cases a very good education. if you decide to turn that option down and go private...your choice...don't expect a rebate.