to expect the school to provide me with info for my appeal

[petelly]

We're appealing to a VA school. They've been ignoring my requests for info to prepare my appeal (sizes of classrooms, layout of school, whether they've exceeded the PAN etc etc). They've grudgingly been giving me piece-meal info that hasn't addressed all our requests.

The layout of the school was sent to me the day before the appeal last Thursday (which was adjourned to a later date) even though I'd asked for it in July. Someone had actually tippexed out the class sizes which were on the layout before sending it to me even though we'd specifically requested them as well.

It's been such a long and exhausting slog with the school - but AIBU to expect them to give me this info? I know I'm ENTITLED to it by law but they're behaving as though I am being unreaosnable in my requests.

I sit on admissions appeal panels.

Why do you need this information? Is this a primary or secondary school? What is the basis of your appeal: are you arguing that the school can squeeze in one more pupil, ie your child?

I'm not sure whether YABU but I do wonder whether you might be barking up the wrong tree.

I need the info to prepare my appeal - which is on space.

It's a primary school and it's an infant class. They have a PAN of 28 and I'm hoping to show they can take one more child under normal prejudice (the reason we had the appeal adjourned was because the clerk and the chair all agreeed it was infant class size prejudice - which it's not) .

Because it's a VA school, I understand the info needs to come from them as they are their own admissions authority (although I got the school's net capacity assessment from a very sympathetic person at the LEA).

If you were on the panel and I showed evidence of the school doing underhand things like only sending me info the day before the appeal and tippexing out crucial info so I can't see, would you hold it against the school or does it not matter?

I am not sure they would be this petty? things may have changed - hence the tipex...also people who work in schools tend to be very very overworked... maybe they simply they didn't have time.

I am sure you are right to feel pissed off as it is your child, but remember they don't have the same emotional attachment to it as you

If you asked for information in July & got it last week, as far as the admin staff at a school are concerned, that's a couple of weeks, not a couple of months - they don't work during the holidays. The end of the summer term and start of the autumn term are massively busy times for school admin staff - I know, because I am one.

Hmm, maybe. I might be too quick to look for foul play.

I appreciate they may be busy but they are obligated to provide me with the info I reasonably request in a timely manner. Apparently they haven't had an appeal in 8 years so they're hardly over burdened with parents requesting info for appeals.

But I still do think it's fishy that the class sizes on the layout had been tippexed out and the sizes of the toilets, storerooms etc left, especially since I had specifically requested to know the class sizes.

Mmm. It's complicated. In the first place, is it clear and beyond doubt that the school are being underhand rather than just disorganised/inefficient/simply busy with other things? The tippexing does sound odd but it is plausible, I think, that the delay was because there was nobody in the school over the summer to do it. In the end, the appeal will turn on whether the admissions criteria are fair and lawful and then the arguments about the prejudice (or not) of admitting your child. The panel has to consider the matter on the terms set out in the admissions appeal code and can't find for one party because they like them or against one party because they have not behaved well. The panel has to do the right thing by the child and the school (and balance the two): it isn't passing moral judgements on the people before it or punishing them or teaching them a lesson. Then again, if one party was very obviously trying to mislead the panel or the other party, then that might undermine their credibility.

These are just my own thoughts. I can't advise you on what to do or how to present your appeal. Do you have a parents advocacy service in your LEA? They might be able to help you.

Oops. Am slow typist and others have already made my point about school offices being frantic at either end of a term.

And they may not be busy with appeals but they will have been busy with last term's leavers and this term's joiners. And everything else.

Being one who believes that the cock-up is more common than the conspiracy, my guess would be that there was a panic about whether the sizes shown were actually accurate and they thought it was better not to send them if they might not be right - we have a plan of the school with some dimensions which could only be correct if the school was in fact the TARDIS.
Our bursar thinks this is because the school was originally open plan & somebody just drew in the walls as they were built, but left all the original figures there. Judging by what I've seen of our borough's architects' department, I can well believe it. (Apologies to any competent local authority architects that may be reading this - I'm sure I don't mean you )

Just wanted to back up and add to what MadBadandCoveredinSequins has said.

Basically an appeal boils down to this:

The school argues that taking an extra pupil is detrimental to the welfare/learning of all the other children who have been offered a place.

Your counter argument is that the detrimental effect to your child outweighs that. It's basically as simple as that.

The Telegraph used to publish an excellent guide to the appeals process. I can't find an ad but here is a link to useful info on their website: www.telegraph.co.uk/education/4797696/School-places-The-right-to-appeal---a-parental-prerogat ive.html

Oops - here's the link www.telegraph.co.uk/education/4797696/School-places-The-right-to-appeal---a-parental-prerogative.htm l

Oops - here's the link www.telegraph.co.uk/education/4797696/School-places-The-right-to-appeal---a-parental-prerogative.htm l

The Advisory Centre for Education is another potential source of help and advice.

I appealled for my son for secondary school and won. You can get lots of information from the dfes website. If you are appealling on the grounds of 1 more. You will need

1. how many appeals were won last year, which would indicate that the school do have room for more.

1. Standard admission number. How many pupils on roll for the whole school,then equate an average per year group. This is usually higher than the admission number and proves they do take on more pupils.

1. How many each years intake is split into how many forms.

Look at the Ofsted report and finds way to show that one extra pupil wouldnt be detrimental.

The Advisory Centre for Education have been brilliant. I've called them a few times and received really helpful advice each time. I also read 'How to Win Your School Appeal' back to back as well as trawling through mumsnet.

Lucky I did because unfortunately we never even got to the stage of establishing whether there was space becauae of the infant class size prejudice issue. We had the appeal adjourned because we'd have lost for sure if it was an infant class size appeal and turns out we were right that it's not infant class size prejudice. Now we need to arrange for it to be reconvened.

I know the panel can't decide in our favour just because the school have behaved badly but I do think it undermines their credibility.

I kind of accept the busy argument and hope that really is the case. However, the fact that the secretarily snootily informed me 'You'll get the information you ask for one week before the appeal' leads me to suspect they are being obstructive. But I guess it's more healthy to give them the benefit of the doubt....

So petelly, how did your appeal hearing go?

I am assuming you've had it by now.