to buy all of my female relatives copies of "Bad Science" for Christmas?

[AvrilH]

I am sick and tired of them wittering on about the importance of "superfood", omega 3, manuka honey, homeopathy and whatever nonsense is being spouted by charlatans like Gillian McKeith.

So I am pondering Ben Goldacre's book (which I have not read myself) as an antidote. And out of curiosity as to how they take it... From reading his column I am assuming that they might at least learn what evidence means. The worst that can happen is that it will be like when they buy me books by self-styled experts and it will be passed on unread to a charity shop.

AIBU?

not passive aggressive

any more than their unwanted presents to me over the years have been passive aggressive

they genuinely believe that I should e.g. learn about the foods that can supposedly cure cancer

Ben Goldacre writes very well, if they read his book, I think they would enjoy it, and it could change their lives for the better,

They would waste less of their hard-earned money on marketing cons like manuka honey (yes, it tastes very nice, and does have plausible medicinal uses, but there is no real evidence that it is any more effective than own-brand cheap honey which is a tiny fraction of the price), on nonsense potions that are meant to change the pH of their body, on books by con artists like those mentioned above...

holford is a business man who sells placebo and enables others to also sell placebo.

he is not a registered or accountable practitioner.
he has no evidence based body of knowledege
he isn't compelled to do CPD
he isn't bound by accredited national standards
as a client you have very limited recourse if one of these "nutritionists" gets it wrong. they cant be struck off as they lack professional registration

jeez I really am off to bed

How many people has Patrick Holford killed?

He really is a target of a vested interest campaign.

re: his qualification

just done some googling: he was failed his MPhil in a a biochemistry department headed by a consultant to the sugar industry and with links to the Wellcome Foundation

more tomorrow, much more

the holfored fans,always see conspiracy theories everywhere

big bad scientific establishment trying to stifle the placebo peddler

god you are so credulous and gullible

i know you cant polish a turd.holford talks shite

I thought mmrsceptic had gone to bed?

And?you know what holford is easy pickin.so fucking easy. quacks always are

"By mmrsceptic Sat 19-Sep-09 20:37:08
Conventional medical errors cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people every year."

Can you link to your data source for this claim please?

In any event, death is one of the few certainties, so I guess medicine is basically about delaying that inevitability and making life as pleasant as possible while we are here.

Now I find the idea of somebody selling desperate people placebos that don't work for substantial profits doesn't tick my box for making life pleasant. And let's be honest with Patrick Holford we're not generally talking about people with life threatening illness else it would very quickly become clear to his patients that what he was peddling wasn't working.

I am sad that my desperate friend emptied her bank account to buy nutritional supplements after a miscarriage, whereas I got the same results in similar circumstances by paying £35 for a couple of consultations with a registered dietitian. Good diet almost always helps anything, but there are people who are properly qualified to give people the advice they need and they don't sell supplements.

I'll get back in my box now.

if a Dr or HCP cause a fatality they face investigation and potential de-registration and sanctions

a "nutritionist" no such sanction or check and balance - they can continue to practice

No contribution to the debate, but OP YANBU, that's my Mum's Christmas present sorted!

Well it's that or a new, "What Your Dreams Mean," dictionary to replace the Readers Digest one from 1981 that she still uses.

Along with the Medical Encyclopaedia from that time, which she is constantly referring to

On the whole the deaths/adverse effects from medicines are from misdiagnosis or errors in administration. Basically human error. But yes many medicines are dangerous if misused (and some are dangerous by design - for example chemotherapy). Plenty of "natural" things are dangerous too - herbal medicines can also directly kill/harm if misused (not too surprising, as a great deal of both drugs and medicines are derived from plants).

A fair amount of medical practices have not been fully tested in the way that we would now expect because of issues around how you could set up trials (in some areas you wouldn't get through ethical approval and in others blinding is problematic. For example in mental health treatments are still used where no one quite knows what they do, but they have been shown to work in the past (and documented). I still think that most people would be more comfortable using more modern treatments where there is a scientific basis for the clinical effects and an evidence base supporting the effectiveness, and as the older treatments are phased out in favour of more effective things that can only be to the good.

For some of the complimentary therapies testing using a clinical trial methodology doesn't work very well because the holistic approach is a very important part of the treatment, so the model used for pills won't capture all the effect.

The best position is to be skeptical of all claims without evidence, and to have the skills to be able to interpret that evidence. That's ore than just possible sources of conflict (funding etc) but also things like knowing what the different sorts of studies can and can't show, when a sample size is too small, whether a difference is significant or not etc. I think critical appraisal should be taught at school.

OldLady - I'd be offended not just by your sister's attempts to proselytise, but also (from the little I skimmed of that tome in the shop) by her dubious taste in writing.

I was going to come back at the dubious stuff mmrsceptic has posted since I last logged in, but others, esp IsItMe and nooka, have done the job better than I could. Retiring!!

UQD, I was surprised; she has a 2:1 in English!

(And yes, it's shite, but I did read it all the way through out of duty to my sister. Wonder if she'd do the same with Dawkins?)

My problem with all of this is that in a rational scientific sense I hate homeopathy. If water molecules can have a memory of everything they've ever been in contact with then they'd all have more memory of being sewage than it's really healthy to think about.

However the placebo effect is a well documented fact. Reiki and homeopathy in themselves might be total rubbish however they are props which access this effect. In that sense they do work, just not in the way they're meant to.

I kind of think the world would be a better place if doctors could hand out more sugar pills and less antibiotics, which often seem to be a dangerous placebo of choice.

Placebos have been shown to be as effective as many ADs, and without side effects. I wish there was some ethical way for GPs to prescribe them.

I watched a fascinating program on placebos a while ago, where they even manged to do some with surgery. I have no idea how they go that through an ethics committee, but I'm not sure it was English. But that is one reason why just looking at the direct action of an intervention does not always tell you the picture. I think this one reasons why some GPs are more comfortable with the idea of complementary therapies, because it fits more with the holistic approach that GPs are (or were) trained in. Then there is also something about getting support when mainstream medical world has nothing to offer, and that feeling of doing something, whether placebo or simply someone sympathetic may also have benefits. Just not necessarily the ones that are advertised.

I used to lodge with someone whose full time job was reiki and crystal healer. Had never heard of reiki and not sure if I kept a straight face while she explained it to me

SPB - you've just HAD A BABY! Shouldn't you be lying down or somesuch?

I wish there was such a thing as complimentary medicine. As in, you take it, look in the mirror and a little voice says, "God, you look good today. And that jumper really suits you."

have done the lying down now I'm multitasking pasta eating/feeding/MNing!
In the hope I can put her down & get sleep

oh and she is 24 and a half hours old

Congratulations, SPB!