to buy all of my female relatives copies of "Bad Science" for Christmas?

[AvrilH]

I am sick and tired of them wittering on about the importance of "superfood", omega 3, manuka honey, homeopathy and whatever nonsense is being spouted by charlatans like Gillian McKeith.

So I am pondering Ben Goldacre's book (which I have not read myself) as an antidote. And out of curiosity as to how they take it... From reading his column I am assuming that they might at least learn what evidence means. The worst that can happen is that it will be like when they buy me books by self-styled experts and it will be passed on unread to a charity shop.

AIBU?

while it is true that you have to give consent to medical procedures this is supposed to be informed consent. However it rarely is because the patient is rarely told about the true risks of the procedure, especially those considered to be small.

In addition if a doctor tells you e.g "these cells could be cancerous" you may have only their word for it that the cells actually looked like that and they are not back-covering in case of litigation.

There are many cases where the medical profession has been really opposed to something that was later accepted as truth. Study the history of medicine and you'll find things like doctors taking pride in bloodstained coats and refusing to believe they harboured anything damaging like bacteria.

This book is an interesting read too

www.amazon.co.uk/Cry-Covenant-Thompson-Morton/dp/0899667589

That looks like a cracking read but possibly a weepy

"[UnquietDad] seems to believe that manuka honey is sugar pills... And Omega 3."

I have not mentioned these things in the entire thread.

Thanks for all the book suggestions!

To those who keep saying that it is a stingy gift - it doesn't have to be the only thing I give them. I often include a book that I think someone would like. I would give the hardback version, were it not for the missing chapter.

I think you should do it.

What says happy christmas better than a really sneering attitude to their opinions. You get to be really rude to them and patronising at the same time - so it is a present that multi tasks.
They should feel foolish having different opinions to yours, it is incredibly uppity ofthem. Women really used to know their place. Back when my mother was having her babies she went into hospital and the Doctors made her lie down and would shout at her for wanting to move during labour, and they would tell her when to feed and to make baby sleep on her front and generally just do as she was told .
I think the fact that women now want to be a bit more involved in their own health and that of their children we should just ensure that they are made to feel really fucking stupid about it at every oppertunity.
Its really fgood actually because it works always. You can either sneer at women because they smoke and eat badly and their children are overweight and have issues. Or, if they try to eat healthily and go to Boots to get vitamins and things you can sneer at them about that too.
It is a perfect circle of contempt.

Women are there to have babies and be stupid. Those women who want to avoid the 'stupid woman' man trap have to either laugh at Jeremy Clarkson or just take every oppertunity to portray other women as fluffy and lightweight. Then men can feel good about themselves and women who agree with them can get a bit of God complex kudos by assocation.
Its like all those 80s women inthe city with their man suits and drinking habits. That worked really well too.

Yeah. You should do it.
It will make you seem really superior and groovy

great post, pagwatch

Ironically, when I had my baby they made me lie down on my back and would shout at me for wanting to move, after refusing any help with feeding for the first 8 hours, they then kept telling me when to feed and to make my baby sleep alone (on her back though). I sometimes wonder if the danger of front sleeping was partly from uncooperative babies being wedged that way by obedient parents.

Nothing wrong with wanting to be properly informed and empowered- that is quite the opposite from having blind faith in the medical profession. Because I want to learn to think critically and evaluate things for myself does NOT make me some kind of woman-hater. If anything, saying that "leave women their woo, you big meanies" is more patronising. As far as all that stuff works, I like to remember the warning that if you open your mind too far, your brain might fall out.

I'm not entirely sure of the etiquette of giving the book as a gift, but I certainly think it's a good book and would recommend it.

TheHeathenOfSuburbia has hit the nail on the head I think, regarding the tone of the book.
And lol at BoF; "open your mind too far, your brain might fall out"

BoF
I don't think that is what I was saying was it?
I think that challenging alternative therapies etc is fine. I think being exasperated with other peoples critical thinking is fine. I have many conversations with my mother where her bizarre belief that a specific number of calories will transform her into Sophia Loren can become quite tiring.

But I think that pretending that you are challenging that by sending this book to just your female relatives for christmas is nonsense. It is just snyde and superior. And a raft of the comments on this thread are in that tone.
It is possible to challenge someones beliefs without being demeaning.

Can't speak for the OP but I find proponents of CAM never stop for a minute to think whether or not their opinions are wanted or welcome. I have had so much unsolicited "advice" it's not true. It pisses me off enormously.

Have you had counselling for that pent-up rage, Thing One?

Fair enough, Paggy old bean

Who said it was pent up BoF?

I smile sweetly, walk away quickly and then jump up and down when I get inside my front door .

Yeah - the book is definitely a weepy. Semmelweiss listened to all those daft women who preferred to have babies at home (where they and their babies survived) rather than go into hospital to be treated by the "experts" of their day - and often die of infection.

He observed a difference and conducted a fairly scientific experiment for the time (but not double blind and randomised, wouldn't meet current standards of good science) to test if things improved. They did. But he had no idea why it worked so the "experts" laughed at him.

Every mother owes him a debt of gratitude for having an open mind. If his colleagues had been less arrogant many lives would have been saved.

I don't intend to demean - I will buy a few copies of Goldacre's book to give as presents, because, if his columns are anything to go by, it will be well written and funny. I will obviously consider whether the recipient is likely to appreciate it. I will also buy a few of the other even "softer" books suggested, like John Diamond's.

It might also make their lives better. All the worry about every morsel of food, remembering supplements, time wasted on misguided "research" which only serves to annoy the seriously ill.

Personally, I just wanted to give it to my female relatives because, it is them, who fall for the woo. Pagwatch, I think your mother, and my, experiences of maternity "care" are relevant to that. It is not that women are inherently more gullible, they just have more reason to be suspicious of conventional medicine.

Pag, superb, I said earlier in a fit of rage that this was like saying happy christmas you dullard, and you have expressed it so much more forcefully.

Funnily enough it was my own childbirth experience which led me down this road. It was the discovery that doctors can be wrong, very wrong, very badly mistaken, not just in the instant, but in their whole procedure. To get things right I would have to use my own brain and work it out for myself, with the help of other women who had walked the same path.

Strange and odd that it's led you down a different route Avril. It taught me to listen to other mothers who think for themselves and it taught you to sneer.

mmrsceptic - you are not thinking for yourself, you are paying heed to con-artists like Holford

the whole point is that this book supposedly encourages critical thinking - see HeathenofSuburbia's post above

where have I sneered?

on this thread

er yes I am thinking for myself

do you think holford is the only thing i've read? are you nuts? that's pretty sneering in itself

you on the other hand are parrotting BA as if he was an oracle

very independent minded

cheers BoF

AvrilH . ISWYM and I didn't really think you would actually deliberately demean your relatives.

I agree re women and conventional medicine. Women still tend to be responsible for the health of their children and often the whole family. I just wish between the Doctors with a God Complex and the hectoring specialist on tv there was a bit more support for those trying their best - especially when in difficult circumstances.
Those of us dealing with complex medical issues often get treated pretty badly right across the board.

Just buy them some nice knickers and chocolates too - theres a doll!

tell me something compromising about BA Avril

do you think you can?

I wish I had the virtual aplomb pag has and didn't get so bloody irritated by smuggery

pag, the message of the book is almost the exact opposite of "believe whatever the medical preofession tells you".

It is about how to assess evidence and risk, and apply them to your life, and not be steamrollered by know-it-all doctors or scaremongering journalists... a laudable aim, no?

lol @pag's post of 10.12

TheHeathen

my comments were not about the content of the book.
They were about choosing to give a christmas gift designed to debunk the beliefs of women you (hopefully )love.
I have already said I have no issue with trying to challenge peoples beliefs....wherever they arise.
I tend to disapprove of gifts as a weapon of choice.

I think Avril was kind enough to see the point I was making.....

Like you could only give 'How Clean Is Your House?', say, to someone who had a really clean house. Otherwise it's a bit of an insult really.

Perhaps he should take a leaf from JK Rowling's book, and do an alternative cover. Maybe with the title 'How To Look After Your Own Health', or something friendly and non-provocative like that.

Sorry don't have time to read all the thread but please OP do not under any circumstances be so misinformed and offensive as to give an ME sufferer a book written by Ben Goldacre.

If you really feel the need to impose such a thing on a sufferer of a little understood medical condition then spend some time looking into what you are about to do (and be prepared to really upset your ill friend).

A good place to start would be to examine Goldacre's connection with the Institute of Psychiatry and with a certain Simon Wessley. Wessley has done untold harm to ME suffers through his agenda to have ME defined as a pyschiatric illness when in fact there is an increasing body of science which shows it to be an environmental one.

I don't care if you choose to saddle any other people with ghastly Goldacre's smug and agenda laden book but PLEASE don't be so ignorant as to think it is a clever idea to give it to someone with ME.