'Keep toddlers from animals' call

[tryingtobemarypoppins]

This was on the bbc today news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8264266.stm

I have a bit of a problem as my parents, to whom I am soooooo greatful too, look after my 22 month old twice a week. They are very very out doorsy (sp?) and have a small holding of goats, chickens etc. They also take him to lots of farms etc which is lovely.

I am however really worried about those poor children who have caught E.coli and feel that when advice like the bbc have given today is given, parents should think carefully about following it......

difficult situation......what do you think?

My DS would lick a sheep too!

Our local 'open farm' Not only has several ouside sinks for handwashing but has loads of full antibacterial hand-wash with big signs explaining they must be used after touching any animal. Great place to visit.

Sorry fleshwound I didn't mean to sound as if I was picking on you! Water hot enough to kill bacteria would be too hot to tolerate.

Soap is one of the essential parts as it disolves oils (and proteins) on the skin which may harbour bacteria.

Technically very hot soapy water will disolve more oils than cold but you could not expect a child to tolerate water hot enough to disolve oils.

A cold water wash with soap and a good washing action should be enough.

bronzebeard it is just too small to call it a farm, although smallholding sounds quite up itself! We have several acres and keep chickens, sometimes lambs, 2 ponies (and lots of useless animals like bunnies, cats and a dog)and grow lots of veg and have a small orchard - think the good life, mud included, and you are about there.

Here here Valhala - I am another frequent visitor of Godstone and you can't fault their hygeine - there are loads of washing stations and signs. But you always see parents and children coming out of the petting areas and walking on to the next area without washing their hands.

It's truly worrying and sad all these ill children - there's no doubt about that. But I am also saddened to think that such a wonderful place as Godstone is getting slated, when really we ALL need to improve our hand hygiene.

We grew up on a farm and I remember daring my cousin to eat chicken poo,which she did.None of us ever had anything worse than bugs caught from school,and that very rarely.My dd's are on the farm every day and have never caught anything,in fact dd1 was the only child in Reception to never have a day off ill.

If it is so dangerous to touch farm animals,why aren't the hospitals full of farmer's children?

Sadly,we are so used to everything being sanitized,that some parents now won't let their children touch animals and that would be a real shame.

In the world we live in we are so desensitized to bugs that we catch diseases so more readily. Animals have always had E coli, we just have less immunity to bugs.

I carry anti-bacterial wipes AND anti-bac hand gel when I go out, and wipe my children's hands with it, uf we are out and no other way to clean them, but all the farms that I have visited have had ample places to wash your hands. It is the parent's responsibility to ensure that children wash their hands properly before eating or thumb sucking!

It would be terrible to deny children the opportunity to visit farms and to learn about animals and interact with them. It is terribly sad that children have become ill, but life does involve a degree of risk.

The world is simply going mad.

I have more worries about what lingers on the supermarket trollies and some childrens toys in GP surgeries...

I was brought up with all sorts of animals and birds on a farm I was probably a bit of an urchin to look at somedays but I was fine and my DS is going to deal with animals as always and keep to the old story of wash hand throughly before eating and fingers out of mouths.

I'll just steer him to the washrooms (without touching the doors of course) after visiting the local supermarkets WCs instead!!

First of all I would like to say that my heart is with all the parents of the children who are ill. No parent should ever have to see their child sick or fighting for their life.
Second of all I'd like to ask certain storm brewing journalists if they have ever been to Godstone Farm? I am with Valhala on this one.
Godstone Farm DID NOT have poor hygeine. You couldn't go anywhere without seeing signs about washing your hands and the fact that washing your hands was not for the protection of the animals, but for the protection of the kids. There are soap dispensers and water basins in the same sheds as some of the animals, and we have always had access to toddler level basins. I don't know what more they could have done, they provided the information, the soap and the sinks.
I went to Godstone farm as a toddler myself and have had wonderful times recently with my own toddler.
I am a health professional working in a hospital and so have had the luxury of hand washing lessons complete with a light box. Instead of a rediculous knee jerk reaction like separating small children from animals and the real world around them we should be thinking about teaching them (and parents) what proper hand washing entails - ie not just a flash under the water and maybe a squidge of soap.
Dogs and cats can carry horrible bugs - as can other small children - what does the government suggest for that?
My DS has learnt so much from Godstone farm, one of the most important being the need for respect and gentleness with animals - he now knows NOT to squeeze a chick and to be quiet and gentle when stroking rabbits and guinea pigs. He has gained confidence seeing how the animals live and learning not be afraid by them. I watch him using these life lessons when he meets animals in the rest of his world, ie respecting them. He understands that the egg on his plate has come from a chicken who lives in a field (we haven't dicussed battery farms!) and that sheep are infact not soft as books would have him believe.
I am so glad to hear that there are other sensible mums out there. Its a tragedy that these farms will probably now close either due to overlegislation or astronomic insurance bills that they just can't afford to pay.
Lets hope that somehow our voice is heard rather than the journalist folk of certain newspapers.
How can we get the other side of the argument in the press?

we were at Willows Farm yesterday and it was so so quiet. It was a lovely late summers day, and so few people there. It was unusual as usually its packed.

i am not going to stop going to willows, (i know its not the farm in question) we have an annual pass and intend to make full use of it, especially in the next fortnight as after that will rely on public transport to get there.

there are sinks there to wash hands with hot and cold water. lots of them. lots of soap dispensers and hand towels. lots of signs up saying to wash hands. but yet people think a little squirt of hand-gel is sufficent. i have hand-gel. but use it as a double-protection. ie in hospitals, or places of high risk infection, AFTER washing hands. or if stuck with no water and a child desperate for a wild-wee. then a wet wipe and hand-gel. NOT in place of soap and water at a farm.

I feel sorry for Hugh Pennington.
He was interviewed on the Radio 4 Today programme at about 7:30am on Saturday and made an off-the-cuff remark about how he didn't feel totally comfortable with small children being allowed to pet farm animals.
After that the BBC (& other press) hounded him until they pinned him down later the same day on film, saying that it would be safest for under 5s not to pet small animals. The whole story is built around his one opinion, which he has only somewhat reluctantly volunteered. He spends his life studying and worrying about the risks of E. Coli and similar bugs, of course he would take a precautious approach.

That's where this story comes from. HP has not made it a big point to come out and advocate the No Petting thing, he was pushed into expressing his (admittedly expert) opinion. The DoH is not changing its advice on the basis his opinion, there's probably no need to wage a counter argument.

Also, HP explained on Today that E. Coli 157 is a relatively new variety of E. Coli; it surfaced in the last 30 years, and is much more deadly than other strains of E. Coli, this is where Pennington's concerns come from. Knowing that does make me weigh up the risks differently. This isn't the same risk that I or previous generations faced.

One of the other farms closed was actually featured on BBC Radio as a model example of good hygiene. These bugs are just very common, but obviously rare to cause disease, if proper measures are taken. I will probably continue to let DC sometimes pet farm animals, it's quite rare an opportunity for us, anyway.

For anyone who expresses doubt, and "a bit of dirt does no harm" - I can understand your views, but would urge people listen to the interview yesterday on R4 "Today" programme (it's a 2 hour programme, so jump forward to play from 1h 16h)

John Humphrys interviewed a professor of immunology from Aberdeen University, who explained he was unhappy about under-5s petting various animals.

E-coli 0157 is a strain which only dates back about 25 years, John Humphrys expressed genuine surprise when he heard that, especially as it seems to only affect cattle (and therefore be a risk to children) in North America and the UK, and apparently more in the northern half of the UK than the south. It is commoner in Britain than anywhere else in the world.

webdude - that is Hugh Pennington, who is the country's leading expert on O157.
Led the inquiry into the Lanarkshire outbreak.

Bidi, Pennington's under-fives advice isn't new - he said the same thing back in 2000 when there was a cluster of cases.

same guy saying the same thing 9years ago

Ah thanks for the info bidibidi (only saw your post after I had made mine with link to radio interview).

Quite understand the wish to continue to visit these places, and don't blame anyone for that, so long as care it taken.

I'd hate it to be a 'nanny state' prescribing what we can and cannot do (there's too much of that already) but it's a question of weighing up the risks and consequences.

Personally, I wouldn't want to go mountain climbing, but give me a chance to fly a helicopter gunship or a powered hang-glider and I'd be happy, even though the risks could be somewhat higher! Similarly, ski-ing down a slope doesn't interest me but a bobsleigh or even luge (feet first) would be something I'd like to try before I get too old!

So it comes back, to haunt him, no doubt, misdee, that from time to time youngsters will be affected, despite warnings.

It's clear that there's no simple "cure" for under 5s (perhaps under 7s or under 9s if they get badly infected, who knows) so it's really one for "take care" advice (rather than "never visit these places again").

Horton farm has very poor hygiene levels ime, when I last went the pipes were frozen (it was Feb) and there was no running water at any of the sinks and no soap either. Surely in those circumstances they just shouldn't open to the public, or have a sign up warning people before admitting them.

Never had any similar problems at Godstone farm. I think alcohol gel like they have in hospitals should be available as well as warm running water and anti bacterial soap.

I am sure this will make parents realise how important hygiene at farms is now so most people will bring anti bac wipes and gel as well as ensuring a good hand wash.

OP, if your child goes to your parents every week then his immune system should be top notch with respect to snogging the odd goat.

I fully expect my kids to be fluent in "snogging the dog" by six months.

I would imagine that it's more the kids who live in a sterile Mr Pledge environment and who've only ever seen animals on TV who are more at risk.

I'm not sure that antibaterial gel or wipes is effective against e.coli O157. Would be worth checking before you visit a farm.

We went to petting farm yesterday. We made sure he washed his hands after touching the animals and before he ate his lunch. We used soap and water and then used anti-bac gel.

He had a whale of a time.

The sad thing was that the place is normally packed out on a sunny day.... it was pretty much empty. I feel sorry for these places as it's obviously affecting their business.

I grew up on a smallholding, surrounded by animals. My mother was always very hot on washing your hands before every meal (we didn't really eat between meals a lot).

In my country primary school in the 70s, I should imagine that the vast majority of children either played in fields, or lived on farms, or were around farm animals. Probably the mums had the same sort of hand washing rules as mine. I dont remember one case of E coli poisoning - although it happens, it is rare.

Couldn't agree more. If people used a bit more common sense and stopped trying to find someone to blame the world would be a much nicer place.

Stupid. So many children are brought up around animals - I was - and you learned to wash your hands before eating. Panic measure.

This strain of E.coli is new (as in 30 years, I think). So anecdotes about growing up on farms from adults are kind of irrelevant, although obv. handwashing a very good thing in terms of other germs.

This strain is also untreatable beyond good nursing, which is quite scary.