to believe that atheists shouldn't get married?

[Waspie]

I am an atheist. I do not feel that in all conscience I could ever get married as my understanding is that marriage is a religious construct.

Yet Richard Dawkins has been married three times so far and many of my friends who profess to atheism are married. To me it seems hypocritical.

Or am I wrong about marriage being a religious construct?

I would really like your opinions please.

ohjustgrowup - I do find the issues of how religion and society have interwined over the course of the last several centuries into what we now think of as "culture" to be very interesting. You are correct that I'm probably just looking for excuses not to get married.

But this one has been blown to dust!

Webdude - thanks for your concern. I owe my own house (solely) and I have a will. My son's father owns his own house and also has a will. Legally we would be sensible to get married but I am phobic!

doggiesaywoof - yes, religion has been responsible for a lot of good. And also a lot of bad. I'm not anti-faith, I believe strongly that's it is an individual choice. But, for me, I can't believe in any God.

Didn't Coca-cola invent Christmas?

Clemette and stickylittlefingers - ah, yes of course, just as in The Mayor of Casterbridge!

Thank you all for your opinions and views, I've found it really enlightening.

I am being unreasonable but I have seen the (metaphorical) light!!

My friends and family will be stunned at my volte face

When i got married it was nothing to do with religion. My mum told me she'd pay for everything if we got married in a church.

We said no. And had a really really cheap ceremony since we couldn't afford to do more than that!

We married as a declaration of love, to show in public that we intend to stay together forever, and because it shows commitment when you are bound together by a legal contract. Certainly wasn't so God would think it was ok if we had sex if that's what you mean by it being a religious ceremony

"My mum told me she'd pay for everything if we got married in a church" wow! She really wanted it to be church?

I can't abide people who get married in church despite never going to church. good for you for resisting.

curiositykilled - I can allay your concerns, about me as an atheist at least, immediately. I am absolutely definately categorically not afraid of religion getting me. I have more chance of winning the lottery that I don't play whilst in the same week being chosen to to run the 100m in the 2012 Olympics

Malificence: Bullshit. IN my earlier posts I mentioned that there are lots of historical examples of religiously-ordained marriages that were not one-man-one-woman, and the religious organisations of the time were happy to go along with the needs of the time and have a quick prayer/prophecy/re-interpretation of the Holy Chipwrapper to announce that actually the Great Pumpkin is fine with this, that or the other variation.
Also, many swingers and polyamorists have happy relationships that last longer than plenty of heteromonogamous ones. Marriage is and ought to be what the people doing it want it to be.

"religion has been responsible for a lot of good. And also a lot of bad. I'm not anti-faith, I believe strongly that's it is an individual choice. But, for me, I can't believe in any God."

The issue of religion being responsible for doing good isn't what I was getting at when I posted about philanthropy etc - I was just thinking of other analogies.

i.e. just because the history of philanthropy is heavily entwined with religion, it doesn't mean that it is a bad thing per se

Nor does it mean that giving to charity etc now needs to have anything to do with religion

As with marriage.

beanieb - she was Very disappointed! She was going to pay for flowers, reception, dress, everything...but having said that she did pay £10 for a pair of shoes and £15 for my bouquet
I was raised a Catholic and she probably still doesn't believe me that i can't/don't share her faith any more.

SGB - how dare you say that to me!

The WHOLE point of marriage is FIDELITY - if you can't be faithful to your partner, you SHOULD NOT get married , simple as that.

Sharing your partner sexually with others is abhorrent and WRONG, just as wrong as child abuse and rape and before you bang on about consenting adults, blah blah, you could argue that a woman or man in a violent and abusive relationship is consenting by staying in that relationship.

I am not religious at all so it's not a religious objection, I just can't believe anyone who truly loves their spouse would want to have sex with other people.

Malificence, while I agree with you that for many people fidelity is a very important part of the commitment of marriage there are some people who are married but who have relationships where they are not sexually faithful and agree on this principle.

I would say it's a very small percentage but it does happen.

Sharing your partner with others may be wrong for you, and that is your own choice, but for other people it is no where near on the same level as Rape or child abuse and I think you're going a bit over the top to suggest that couples who make a mutual agreement to have an open relationship are akin to rapists and child abusers.

Waspie, posted earlier but haven't read everything posted in between as having a rather fraught day!

Was just thinking though that in France religion and state are separate in law and that you have to have a separate legal ceremony from any religious ceremony that you might have.

I'm just saying that I find it as unacceptable as child abuse or rape, my feelings against it are THAT strong, it actually sickens me.

Waspie, just been reading a bit more.

My DH was phobic too but we were both so happy to get married in the end. For some reason standing up in front of our nearest and dearest was an extraordinary and wonderful experience and makes us a stronger couple. I guess that is why ceremonies and celebrations, religious or otherwise, are such important rites of passage in most cultures.

It isn't for everyone though - do what's right for you.

Waspie - Coca-cola invented Santa as we know him!

They didn't.As explained here

The use of unneccessary capitals is also wrong.

I really can't see how it compares to child abuse or rape. I think it's incredibly crass and offensive to compare two adults who decide to have an open relationship with someone who sexually abuses a child.

Unnecessary sorry.

OP are you having a laugh?!

I was always under the impression that marriage was a way of handing over the bride from her father's possession to that of her husband. Hence the "to obey" only ever being present for the female to say and not the male.
This in essence came from a religious point of view that women are subservient to men.
Nowadays the marriage ceremony has been re vamped if you like to accomodate more modern thinking that females are not the property of men.
Our cultural/society values are based on the Christian ethos for example the 10 commandments such as thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal. These in turn have formed the basis of our legal system which binds all of us whether you like it or not.
Who really is to say that it is wrong to steal? or wrong to commit adultery say? It is so ingrained from generation to generation that anything else seems wrong.

You might think that we obey these "commandments" because it is only logical and correct to do so but when you really think about it on whos say so it is wrong?

Re the op get married if you want to, do it entirely on your own decision.

Personally I feel it is up to each individual what they choose to do, don't answer to anyone, just be true to yourself.

France split church and state after the revolution I think MiniMarmite? They have always had a very secular infrastructure despite being a catholic country.

I'm glad you and your husband managed to get past his phobia . I think I pretty much have a phobia about anything that would put me at the centre of attention.

I am going to show this thread to my partner later though and apologise and admit he's right about religion and marriage (oooh, that's a hard thing to do )

doggiesayswoof - yes, I understand. You make a good and valid point. Thanks.

Monkeyandbooba - d'oh Of course - Santa and Coca-cola not Christmas and Coca-cola. I must say though that I don't "do" christmas except as a consumer driven frenzied orgy of going out, eating too much, having paid time off work and buying my son too many toys

I think that is how most of us approach christmas! I view it as an opportunity to catch up with family and have some quality time together

I don't care if two people want an open relationship, just don't get married or have children if you want to behave that way.

I'm not comparing swinging etc. with child abuse and rape, I'm saying I have the same response to the thought of people having sex with others whilst married that I do to the former - i.e. Disgust and incomprehension.

Infidelity is infidelity regardless of whether it's hidden in an affair or carried on with the agreement of both parties.

I think the comments about atheists getting married in church are unfair. I would much rather make my vows under a humanly constructed benign omnipotent being, accompanied by the products of hundreds of years of liturgical, artistic, musical and architectural tradition, than to get married in the eyes of a Crapsworth Council official in the local Town Hall.

(Disclaimer: I've been to plenty of very nice registry office weddings, but they have generally been nice in spite of the wretchedly prosaic ceremony and surroundings)

ZephirineDrouhin - I have to agree. I love churches and cathedrals, listen to lots of (early) religious music, but am as atheist as they come, so got married (for tax reasons and for hte children later and because we were leaving the country) in a hotel. By an awful woman called Wendy who talked to us in this weirdo primary school teacher way (I thought dp was going to explode). We very nearly didn't get married that day (partly because I was just giggling too much! And there had been no drink taken at that point) it was so gut-wrenchingly-cringe-worthy.

Aside from that - my German friends find it very odd how we don't go to the town hall to get married. Given many "Rathaus"'s are lovely old buildings, they seem to get the best of both worlds that way.

Well it is true that there are a lot of nice old Town Hall buildings. But they all seem to be done out like hotel conference rooms inside. It's miserable.

I'm now thinking about the split between church and state (as per MiniMarmite's post about French marriages) and wondering if in fact the break Henry VIII made with the RC church actually brought church and state closer together than they should ever have been?

The way I'm thinking is that because the monarch became the head of both church of England and the head of state, instead of simply letting the RC church and the Pope cover the religious angle, areas which, in other countries remained the province of either the church or the state, became intertwined to a greater extent by virtue of the fact that in effect the state was the church and vice versa.

I realise I haven't phrased this well but I'm on a conference call and trying to talk about project management stuff as well as type the interesting MN stuff!