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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that secondary schools need to offer core subjects like maths?

86 replies

Feelingoptimistic · 19/08/2009 10:21

I am just shocked that apparently there are some secondary schools in the UK that no longer offer what I consider to be core subjects, like maths, physics and chemistry. To be honest, I think that a school that does not offer these subjects is not a "proper" school. Of course, not everyone has to do these subjects, but they should be offered and promoted.

The thing is that there are many jobs you can't do without those subjects (engineering, medicine, anything science related, anything related to IT, etc.)

I am reacting to this article:
www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/aug/19/traditional-alevel-subjects-dropped

My dd is only very young, but I would hate to find myself in a position where she is forced to go to such a school and misses out on a good education.

Sorry - rant over, but I am really puzzled by this. I went to a state school (not UK) and did all those subjects with pupils from many different backgrounds...

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 19/08/2009 18:14

Blimey... sounds like the German system is worse than ours for some kids. A reminder that, whatever we think of the UK system now, we don't want to go back to Secondary Moderns.

Surely a lot of the problem at A level with the subjects mentioned is the lack of teachers. It may be more honest for a school to not offer e.g. physics if it doesn't have a teacher with a physics or at least a chemistry degree, providing that there are alternatives such as a 6th form college or another school that budding scientists, doctors and engineers can transfer to. I think I'd rather transfer than have my child taught physics by someone who isn't really qualified.

LovelyTinOfSpam · 19/08/2009 18:15

This is nothing new.

DH had to do BTEC instead of A-level 14 years ago as they would not let people sit A-Levels if they were not sure that they would get an at least ABB in their final results.

TheFallenMadonna · 19/08/2009 18:18

We can't offer an AS course unless we have 8 or more students signed up to it. We are in deficit and financially it doesn't make sense. I teach reasonalby popular subjects (biology and psychology) so I'm all right for now, but other subjects are in a tricky position.

Nighbynight · 19/08/2009 18:28

hi kathy
yes it does suck - dd wants to stay put though, as she has been to so many schools. Looking on the bright side, I am hoping that studying out of school will build up her independent study skills. Also, there are other foreigners stuck in the school with her, who also want to go to uni.

the german system has to improve! It was badly rated by teh UN a few years ago.

(the team building trip. could have been designed to show me in the worst possible light. The "challenge" was gliding. Unfortunately, I am the worlds biggest coward. I stood by the planes and dissolved in all the pent up panic and stress of the last couple of years, dodging ex h, lunatic social workers, ds's illness etc. I was the ONLY person who didn't dare go up. So THANKS boss for showing me up as a coward in front of the rest of the team. I signed on to WORK here, not be shown up a coward.
Also, there were big issues that surfaced later, about the cost, and into whose pockets the money went. I feel that I now know things about certain people, that I'd rather I didnt know.)

SleepWhenImDead · 19/08/2009 18:47

sorry but MillyR and screamingabdab, you're being ridiculously snobbish about individual science GCSEs. I did double award at a very good comprehensive school then went on to get a first at a top 5 University. I can't believe you'd jeopardise other aspects of your child's education just so they could have separate GCSEs in Biology, Chemistry and Physics. There is more breadth in doing the double science award and having more time for other subjects such as languages, humanities, arts, etc, rather than using up 3 whole GCSEs on sciences.

tethersend · 19/08/2009 19:04

mrz- unfortunately, that school was not breaking the law by offering 'Opening minds'- quite the opposite.
This is a government-funded initiative to engage disengaged learners, and is in some guise or other, winging it's way to a school near you. I am being forced to teach it. It stinks (IMHO).
It is based on a primary-style curriculum, and consists of 'topics'- within those topics, they learn maths, english, art, humanities and citizenship (or variations). This results in my school in specialist subjects being taught by non-specialist teachers. As an art teacher, I have watched my GCSE results plummet, as they arrive in Y10 thinking that art consists of cutting and pasting. I shudder to think how it will affect the core subjects.
The kids get bored really quickly by it IME, it creates what it set out to combat

snorkle · 19/08/2009 19:19

Nighbynight that does sound bad. A friend of ours had a german girl over to stay for about a month last year - she was 14 and was way way ahead of the English curriculum in languages, maths and science at least. She went to our local school & the maths teacher was giving her A level stuff to do. She wasn't ahead of her peers at home, though she did attend a gymnasium. I thought I'd mention it as maybe although the choice is limited at your school the actual standards achieved maybe aren't as bad as you think?

hocuspontas · 19/08/2009 19:20

I thought that triple science WAS 3 seperate sciences and the single award was 1 GCSE covering all 3 aspects and the dual was 2 GCSEs covering all 3 aspects. DD1 doing AS at the moment and I'm sure that was the case. Her school is a science school and only offered the dual award for her year. It is no problem going onto doing individual sciences at A level - she is doing A level Biology.

Agree - that until you get into the secondary system, and even up to GCSE choices it's hard to understand. I didn't even realise you had to make choices at GCSE, I thought you just carried on doing all the subjects you were currently being taught in Y9.

LovelyTinOfSpam · 19/08/2009 19:25

sleepwhenimdead did you find any challenges doing the a-levels having not done the separate gcse's? what was your degree in? I studied physics and in my day it was all separate sciences and a levels as well so would be interested to hear how it has worked for someone who's been through the new system, as the double science etc things give me the heeby jeebies. Would be happy to be set straight, I have done some research and asked the neighbours kids but so far I'm yet to be convinced!

snorkle · 19/08/2009 19:27

I agree with sleepwhenimdead on the science too. To say that double/triple (what is triple science anyway?) science is different from seperate science is wrong - In AQA at least the double science course is exactly the same as doing 2/3 of the 3 separate science courses and covers the most important aspects. Double science does not stop you doing science A levels either and at A level what you have missed on in that extra 1/3 of work is covered in about a lesson, so you are really hardly disadvantaged at all. Having more breadth at GCSE and so keeping more options open is better for many students.

snorkle · 19/08/2009 19:29

The A levels are designed to follow on from the double award science these days lovelytinofspam. All the foundation you need is covered in that.

mrz · 19/08/2009 19:30

tethersend I was referring to asdx2's post she said the school her child attended didn't offer English Maths or Science just PE, drama, dance and technology and PHSE. Even if you are teaching to topics there must be some core subject content.

LovelyTinOfSpam · 19/08/2009 19:39

1/3 of an entire GCSE syllabus can be covered in one lesson?

What happens to the people who have done the 3-in-1 science GCSE thingy?

SleepWhenImDead · 19/08/2009 19:49

Lovelytinofspam - I"m 31 - it's hardly a new system to do a double award GCSE in science! I didn't do science a-levels but plenty in my school did and went on to study it at university, never a hint that that missing third of a gcse disadvantaged them once they'd done an a-level. I don't doubt that the missing third is covered very quickly.

Nighbynight · 19/08/2009 19:52

snorkle - a small number of children (about 1 in 12) are removed and hothoused in gymnasiums where we are. The selection has nothing to do with intelligence, it is based on what test results you get, over the whole year, aged 10.
I see what the parents do to get their child these grades - they know the work better than the child, they go through everything with the child, every day. they look for the signs that the (supposedly surprise) tests are going to come up, and revise with their child. Dads spend their weekends going over the week's dictation, so that their child will get a 1 in it.
Obviously, a single child, with a SAHM, whose parents went through the system themselves, stands a far higher chance of getting in than a child with 3 siblings, a single mother who works full time, and whose family language isnt even German. Even if all the parents are middle class, university graduates.

Having got into the gymnasium, the children are then put under stress to achieve high standards. They are under constant pressure of being put down into the less academic school. They are strong in languages and maths, but relatively weak in sciences, btw.

Yes, they are far advanced. But at what cost? what about the 1/3 who are left behind in the sink schools? (the remainder go to a sort of in-between school). Anyone can succeed with the bright kids from settled, middle class families - what about the ones who have some kind of problem when they're 10, 11 or 12? or the foreigners?
at present, they are very disadvantaged.

dd is now going to a sink-school (hauptschule) which has a track record of getting foreigners like her through GCSEs. Had she stayed in her old school, she wouldnt even have had the right to do GCSEs. Thats right - she would have got a "high school leaving certificate" aka passport to work behind the till at aldi.
This is a girl who in the UK would be working steadily towards GCSEs, A levels, and university.

KembleTwins · 19/08/2009 19:53

I did separate sciences, but only chose 2, not three. So I have no knowledge at all of biology. Had I done double award science, I would know a bit of biology.

In response to the OP, I would be very surprised if schools didn't offer A Levels in these subjects - it may well be just that no one chose to take them. I have taught A Level groups of between 3 and 9 (Theatre Studies) but also had one year group when no one opted for it.It didn't mean my subject wasn't available.

tethersend · 19/08/2009 19:55

mrz- The core subjects (english, maths, science) are covered by 'opening minds'. This fulfills the schools' legal requirement to teach them- the other subjects she listed were the ones taught alongside 'opening minds'. Even though the lessons are not called 'english', 'maths' and 'science', those subjects are still being taught within 'opening minds' (albeit poorly), in much the same way as at primary school.
I think I'm going to write a curriculum dedicated to closing minds back up again

LovelyTinOfSpam · 19/08/2009 19:55

Sorry sleepwhenimdead i assumed from your post that you had done science for your degree.

Personally I don't see how cobbling the subjects together can be beneficial but there you go, my background is in science so I would say that.

mrz · 19/08/2009 20:00

tethersend and do you know that asdx2's child attended at school that was using "opening minds"?

mrz · 19/08/2009 20:06

sorry I've read her post and see they did

tethersend · 19/08/2009 20:09

Only by her post... she said so:

"The local sink school did do away with the core subjects instead timetabling 15 lessons out of 25 opening minds which apparently were lessons to enthuse the pupils desire to learn. The other 10 lessons were PE, drama, dance and technology and PHSE."

tethersend · 19/08/2009 20:10

No prob

mrz · 19/08/2009 20:14

I thought "opening Minds" had died a death so to speak not heard of it since 2002/3...

tethersend · 19/08/2009 20:18

Oh no. It's back. And rebranded in some cases... Gah! I hate it!

asdx2 · 19/08/2009 20:51

Mine didn't attend the sink school,opening minds wasn't the only reason tbh. The school tended to attract low achievers, mine had fives across the board ds left the other option with 12 A's and A*'s expect dd to achieve the same on thursday. Seeing as only around 20% leave with 5 a to C passes didn't rate their chances there tbh.Friend's ds does /did although he seems to have dropped out, not sure tbh just doesn't go.