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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that maybe we all expect too much support from 'the government' with everything-childcare,healthcare, breasfeeding, the whole shebang?

112 replies

moondog · 17/08/2009 05:53

Eh?

OP posts:
PuppyLoves · 18/08/2009 12:12

If they suffered physical or mental problems then the NHS is there for them ie the state pays for their wellbeing anyway

Penthesileia · 18/08/2009 12:17

Yes, I suppose so. I'm just interested (intellectually) in why we are comfortable with certain kinds of compensation and not others. I wonder if it's because of the 3rd party (ie. the criminal): that people feel angry having to compensate another person for someone else's crime?

PuppyLoves · 18/08/2009 12:34

You do not get compensation for being unemployed, disabled or a pensioner though. You get financial help to give you a decent standard of living, which is considred a right in this country, hence the intoduction of the welfare state. Its not compensation

PuppyLoves · 18/08/2009 12:38

You would have to give examples of compensation we do feel comfortable with in order to understand those we feel uncomfortable with.

Unemployment, disability and old age are not examples of compensation.

Off the top of my head, the only compensation I can think of that I feel comfortable with, is the money soldiers receive when they return injured from a warzone. But that speaks for itself

Penthesileia · 18/08/2009 12:42

Yes, I see your point. It would be interesting to know about the origins of the compensation of victims of crime. Presumably there was some rationale for it. I should Google...

babyignoramus · 18/08/2009 12:49

One problem (as I see it) is the vicious circle caused by the Government's nannying.

For example, how much tax money is spent on the treatment of STI's? To counteract this, the Government spends loads on sex education, free contraception etc. - but this is the same Government that has legalised 24 hour drinking and made it impossible for parents to order their 16 year olds to come home. How often is someone actually prosecuted for having underage sex?

The more the Government takes decisions out of our hands the worse it will become. If you made all your child's decisions for them until they were an adult, would they ever leave home??

OptimistS · 18/08/2009 14:17

Interesting discussion. I fall in the same category as many other posters on here, which is that I can see both sides of the argument.

I certainly know of people who seem to think that everything is someone else's responsibility (usually the state's). I have little patience with these people.

However, I think there are many positives to the nanny state. When I became pregnant (planned pregnancy) it was after I had set aside enough money to pay for childcare to allow me to go back to work after maternity leave. I felt it was my responsibility to organise this, not the state's. Then I found out I was having twins. Suddenly my childcare fund only covered half of what I needed.

Then, at 4 months after birth, my (now-X)P held me up against a wall and threatened to kill me. I left the relationship. I found myself homeless, with two babies, no belongings, and with way less money than I thought (XP helped himself to much of the money I'd saved while I was busy sorting out accommodation and before I had thought to freeze the account, but because it was a joint account I had no comeback in law).

If it wasn't for this nanny state, I would be currently living in social housing and living off benefits. The fact that the state has picked up 70% of my childcare costs allows me to continue in my job. I do not see this as my right; I feel incredibly grateful for it. However, it makes sense. Even with the government paying a large chunk of my childcare costs, I cost the state far less than if I were unemployed and wholly benefit dependent and am also still paying into the system. Surely that's what it's about? Helping people help themselves while trying to reduce the burden on society as a whole? And I had spent 14 years paying into the system before claiming anything back from it.

Likewise, I receive no maintenance from my XP. In my case it is not strictly necessary because we manage. However, there are many women out there who are wholly reliant on this. I agree that it should be the absent parent's responsibility to provide, but take away the safety net and who suffers? Primarily the child. Many lone parents ask the question about what benefits they can get because they are frightened to death about how they will manage and they know that asking their XP will be a waste of everyone's time and energy. Even when maintenance is agreed, it gives the XP a lot of leverage to completely mess up the lone parent's life. It's not so much that lone parent believe they are entitled to state assistance (though to be pedantic they are indeed entitled because this is a right enshrined in law), but that fear has led them to find out what help they may get to prevent them from starving/being homeless/at the mercy of their XP. If we really want to tackle this, let's start meting out some proper punishments to feckless absent parents who take no responsibility for their offspring. Until non payment of maintenance is treated as harshly as tax-fiddling, nothing will change.

For those who are persistently of the 'f**king crap council' description, we need to realise that a lot of this type of talk is an aggressive/devil-may-care type mask designed to cover up for knowing that your life is crap, you've got no control over it, you can't get out of it and it isn't going to get any better. Why not take what you can get and take advantage of it? Isn't there some sort of skill involved in playing the system? I spent several years living on a council estate in the past and knew people who spoke like this. the Daily Mail would love to hate them. But if you actually got to know these people they were also the type who would mind your kids for an hour if you had to do something, or invite you round for dinner if you'd run out of money etc. No one is all bad. Most people behave crap when their life is crap. Then, of course, their lives become more crap because they are behaving crap. It's a vicious circle, and if it needs state nannying to break it, I don't mind that at all.

I do, however, feel (like many other posters) that much state nannying is woefully ineffective. The leaflet approach is a disgrace both to the government coffers and the environment! What's a better alternative? I don't know, though it's a debate I feel we ought to have.

While I would love to see schools that concentrate on education and not so-called life skills that many people feel should be part of the parent's responsibility, isn't there an argument that actually that's exactly what education should be for? Who decides that education means only academic qualifications and job training? Isn't education supposed to be about broadening one's horizons as much as learning to read and write? Isn't offering a vision of a different future (and the means to achieve it) to a child from a sink estate an extremely valuable form of education in it's own right? And don't those 'means' involve notions of self-resonsibility and social-responsibility as much as they do a set of GCSEs? It may not be the individual's right to be given these things, but I would rather live in a society where they are offered. I don't want someone's future written off because they come from a crap background, and if they don't have the advantages of Mr & Mrs Perfect's children down the road then tough, that's life and we shouldn't expect the state to pick up where bad parenting leaves off. That approach just leads to society's detritus increasing exponentially.

What are 'life skills' is, in itself, an interesting discussion. Let's not think it applies only to people from disadvantaged backgrounds. the credit crunch has neatly demonstrated that there are plenty of people from middle- or upper-class backgrounds who have no concept of money management and/or self-restraint (debt for example is not necessarily a bad thing if it is manageable). Perhaps life skills should encompass things like money management, home cooking from scratch using healthy ingredients and sticking to a typical family's meal budget, healthy relationships and good/bad parenting, etc. Controversial? Yes! It may not even be a good idea. But it should be discussed. If kids are to escape the disadvantages of the circumstances into which they were born, how are they to do it? Targeting the parents with leaflets does not seem to work, so should we target the kids instead?

Sorry, this isn't so much an answer to the OP as my own ramblings on the subject, but it is a fascinating topic.

moondog · 18/08/2009 14:37

Thanks for the link Callisto. Interesting reading althoguh some is a bit too hippy and wishy washy for me. I like the sound of that book at the end

'How American kids feel good about themselves but still can't read and write or add up'.

Excellent.

Your post is thought provoking Optimist. Re this
'While I would love to see schools that concentrate on education and not so-called life skills that many people feel should be part of the parent's responsibility, isn't there an argument that actually that's exactly what education should be for.'

I know you go onto qualify this but I believe education should do what it says on the tin. When people can read and write and add up properly, they can then access all the other stuff much more easily. If they can't do this, they haven't a hope in hell.
The dreaded 'self esteem' (I hate that expression) comes after you have mastered educational basics. It doesn't come first. The Project Followthrough kids who used Direct Instruction all had much higher 'self esteem' than the kids following other methods, despite the liberal bleeding hearts wringing their hands and saying that black kids from poor backgrounds needed lots of nebulous 'social skill training' before anyone could even think about the three Rs. What a bloody insult to those kids, keeping them, quite literally in the ghetto.

I read a Guardian article this afternoon that had me snorting aloud. It was to do with the (perceived) lack of women's refuges for the 'travelling community' and bemoaning the fact that those that do exist, doin't understand or respect their 'culture'. One of these cultural habits (I shit you not) is apparently the inability to get up in the morning at a reasonable hour.

I was

OP posts:
OptimistS · 18/08/2009 15:11

Thanks moondog. Had a quick Google of Project Follow Through. Certainly makes interesting reading and contains many valid points quite contrary to what you'd expect. I will find out more. the only 'but..' that immediately sprung to mind was that th eorigina study was undertaken in the 1970s, when completely different cultures existed in schools (teachers had far more sanctions available to them to deal with bad behaviour, while the bad behaviour was probably not as violent as may be encountered today). Beyond that, however, it is certainly worth investigating more and I shall.

As as aside, I will say that I think life skills includes reading, writing and maths, rather than excluding them in favour of, say, social responsibility classes. As you rightly say, they are the means to achieve everything else, just as you have to learn to count before you can start doing multiplication.

I think it's important not to get sidetracked by the self-esteem argument though. It helps no one, of any political persuasion, because it has too many negative connotations, as your post amply demonstrates. I'm not interested in people's self esteem, as only they can alter that. That's why I'm interested in things like personal and social resposibility. These make it clear than even when life is crap there is still no excuse to vandalise the BMW up the road, hit your girlfriend, terrorise the old lady across the street etc, and most importantly, WHY. I personally feel that self-esteem increases with personal responsibiltiy and acting like a decent member of society. Isn't that exactly what you were saying about basic educational skills and Project Follow Through?

moondog · 18/08/2009 15:18

Yes.

Project Follw Through was and is the most amazing thing I have ever come acroos in 15 years involved with education (and specifically special education for kids who are struggling). I use Direct Instruction and see it work. It is quite incredible.

If you had suggested it to me 5 years ago, i would have been horrified, so I am glad that at a relatively advanced age, I can stil ltake on board ideas that radically challenge my way of thinking.

Sorry for your troubles. Hope things continue to resolve thmeselves for you Sounds like a nightmare. I agree with what you say about going after negligent parents (who wouldn't)?

I live abroad (a lot of the time) and have a lot if interesting discussions with people about this sort of tihng. Talked to a Kurd in Turkey once, saying 'In UK we expect vety little from our families and too much from the State'. He laughed and said 'Here, it's the exact oppsotie.'

OP posts:
OptimistS · 18/08/2009 15:55

Oh don't worry about my troubles. They are well in the past. Life is pretty good from where I am sitting. DT's are now 2.7 and amazing, and even XDP and I get along well these days. Thanks though.

I love this line: "I am glad that at a relatively advanced age, I can still take on board ideas that radically challenge my way of thinking." I keep saying similar to myself and remind myself that changing my mind is not a sign of indecision but an ability to adjust my conclusions in the face of new evidence...

PuppyLoves · 18/08/2009 22:29

This has really open my mind. I agree completely that basic skills (reading, writing, counting) have to come before anything else, otherwise what hope do you have of achieving anything that you want/need to in order to improve your situation. And if you do not have the basic skills needed to improve your situation, what then becomes of self esteem?

This is why I love MN, I'm learning all the time

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