To think that A child living in a house without a toilet, Bath, Central heating and Hot water

[beanieb]

is not grounds for calling Social Services?

What do you think?

I think we really need to move on from comparing the past to today's standards.

I think the 'Well, if it was good enough for me 30 years ago it's good enough for you now,' is a dangerous line of thinking and stiffles progress and the innovations that go with it.

Modernisation is not always and entirely a bad thing.

Toilets and sewage systems represent a major improvement overall in health and hygeine standards.

A lot of people romanticise the days of outhouses and no cars, but the reality is that diseases like cholera and typhoid and other illnesses caused by unclean or faeces tainted water were more common.

Before baths became standard in homes, too.

Sure, my dad was brought up in a home like that, but you know, he'd certainly not chose to live in one like that now.

No central heat.

I think it's a British thing to think it's a good thing to freeze and be very uncomfortably cold.

The fact is it can cause health problems for young children, particularly if they have asthma or similar.

Ah. Just seen this is not current day.

It sounds like the house I was born in in the east end in the 50s.

I grew up like that (we did have a toilet outside) and I can say that I value the comforts I have now and wouldn't want to go back.

However it's not automatically abusive to bring up a child like that if that was the point of the question. As others have said it depends on the circumstances.

Sounds like how I grew up- no mains water, our only shower was linked to the well and was unheated so we had baths in front of the fire in the baby bath in the winter for about two years (until I was 8 or 9), no mains electricity for the first year- we used gas lamps, and definitely no central heating, only one open fire, and we dressed in 7th hand clothing that had seen all our neighbours' children first.

I did not feel neglected (not by our living conditions anyway).

Calling SS on these grounds would have been wholly unjustified.

The first place was in 1970 - 75 in very rural Ireland, though most other people had both a bath and a toilet. The second place was the early 80's and my dad chose for us to live in an old farmhouse which he knew had no Bathroom. Again we were the only people I knew without a toilet. We moved from a council house about 5 miles away to the farmhouse.

Thing is, I think if a child was living like this even now (And not because of building works) then it still wouldn't be grounds to cal SS would it?

Bar toilet, not uncommon in many areas in London at the time, especially amongst immigrant communities. The only children that I knew who had bathrooms were all in council housing. The rest of us had a sink and access to a toilet (often shared amongst more than one family). My father was a builder and I remember that each evening we had to boil the water to fill a baby bath in the kitchen in which he stood whilst he washed. I suspect that we would have been described as deprived rather than neglected, but I'm not sure what the Social Services of the day could or would have done.

There are still immigrant families living like this today. I'm not convinced that they would be happier living in B&Bs than in some of the dodgier houses that they manage to rent.

Actually, thinking about it, my mother did get somebody official in after my brother was born (1977, Camden), as our flat was very cold and damp and she was worried in particular about my brother's health. She was told to put more putty around the windows to fill in the cracks, and that the was total amount of support available at that time, so clearly lack of central heating or bathroom wasn't an issue for the authorities then.

Well no, I agree with shonaspurtle. If the child is well taken care of it doesn't matter what there is in the parent's house. I think looking at it from this perspective is a bit weird. Surely no-one would actually phone SS for this reason unless the children were actually being neglected?!

'Thing is, I think if a child was living like this even now (And not because of building works) then it still wouldn't be grounds to cal SS would it?'

To me it would depend on the circumstances.

If the child is in privately-let accommodation, then a home without access to the toilet and bath might well be in violation of the council's standards of housing codes, and I do think that needs to be brought to the council's attention, because such landlords should be fined and, I think, have their property seized.

Also, because this is not the 1970s or early 80s, it's possible that a child without access to these things could have hygiene which is a cause for bullying in school.

As for central heat, if the lack of this is causing health problems, then yes, I think SS should be involved.

TBH, I find the UK incredibly backwards in this lack of what is considered very basic sanitation in many Western nations.

Why wouldn't it have been an issue in the 1980's then? Surely neglect is neglect whenever it happened. The 1980's weren't the 1950's. Does the fact that we're now in the naughties mean no one should be lining like this and it's somehoe worse than if it were 20 years ago?

Because in the 1980s it was more commonplace to not have a toilet or a running bath, in the UK, at least.

Now, it's not so. Outhouses were turned into garden sheds, bathroom suites installed, codes of standard housing introduced by councils to prevent people being taken advantage of by rogue landlords.

We've moved on.

Yup, agree with ExP; teh sit I described below continued all throgh the 80's (until legislation forcing council houses into action I suspect).

There is still the occasional person I come across whose nan or whoever lives in a house with an outside lav; they are invariably home in ex mining communities,where the contratst between those and city housing into the ieghties was enormous.

In central Paris today there are still plenty of privately let apartments that do not have their own toilet or bathroom. I remember reading some statistics about the %age of homes with their own toilets and France was way, way behind the UK.

That's shocking, Bonsoir.

But each council here does have a standard code of housing and if I knew of people renting accommodation without access to hot running water I'd be concerned someone is taking advantage of them.

We are private landlords. We have just renovated a studio apartment and it has all mod cons. But nothing was preventing us renting it out as it was, with a shared toilet and shower in the hall way.

Not at all. Many millions of children across the world live without those things. My in laws have a hole in floor toilet, no heating, hot water or shower/bath in the house. This is perfectly normal in the country they live in. My nephew (and indeed my DH and SILs) have/had a perfectly lovely upbringing and always had their needs met.

But the fact that millions of children live without those things isn't seen as a positive is it?

We don't say 'millions of women across the world live with a high loikelihood of death in childbirth so it's OK in the UK' after all!

And poor quality basic facillities is linked to health issues- no heating meant my sister had a chest infection pretty much betwen 3 and 16. I'vew worked with famillies rehoused because the damp homes caused severe asthma attacks.

When I was at Uni I remember reading a stsy that 90% of homes in a country we were focussing on did not have a toilet. It was by a charity, it was considered a massive and terrible thing- not a reason to dismiss the needs of toehr children worldwide.

She didn't ask whether it was ideal, she asked whether it was neglect. Ideal, no, neglect, no.

True, and I have agreed its not neglect

Bt so often 'it happens in other countries' is used on MN to dismiss things.

Yet in some tribes people force their children out at age 3 (I have a reference somewhere, Brazilian rainforest tribe IIRC). In some countries children are harmed because it is thought that they are witches.

When a country has the power to change things, it becomes significantly worse that the ahrdships still exist, not dismisable.

(A far wider response than to your post K, please don't take as directed to you)

Exactly, Peachy!

And it's also not likely that a family would be renting a studio flat.

Oh expat if you knew the size of the accommodation that families share here in Paris you would be horrified...

I can imagine! It's sad indeed.

I agree, Peachy, more about deprivation than neglect, and you have most certainly raised some salient points regarding comparisons.

My former boss was renting from a solicitor who refused to replace the boiler when it went out, meaning she had no hot water.

She sued him in court and won £3,000 because it's acutally a breach of standard housing code in Edinburgh to rent a place with no hot water.

Our last landlord had a boiler outside in a cupboard; when obviously it blew regul;alrly he would refuse to fit the standard part so we would only get a weeks usage

We also rented a house with two bathrroms deliberately (our money our choice after all); when the water from one started leaking onto the electric board we ahd to stop using it and the landlord said wasnt their problem as we had a separate bathroom, effectively F off

Well yes but that is not what we apid for (and we couldnt gusrantee a DC wouldnt accidentally turn on taps in there).

So wemoved out. but we could, many cannot.

True, Peachy. My former boss couldn't afford to move, either, until she got her CCJ on the guy.

Then, of course, he served her Notice to Quit, but she was leaving anyway and took the £3,000 with her.

Oh, then he tried to keep her deposit so she sent him notice to take him to small claims court for that, too, and he coughed up just to be rid of her.

Isn't it about choice though? If you choose to live in a house/setup that involves not having certain things, thats up to you. If you are anti-materialistic and want to live in the woods and can still look after your children properly and love and cherish them, thats a lifestyle choice. If you are forced to live in substandard accomodation without decent facilities because of poverty or circumstance, thats an entirely different matter.