To feel a bit sorry for children whose parents don't do anything creative with them?

[flamingobingo]

I expect a lot of people will think I am, but I don't care.

I don't love doing crafts (in fact it drives me mad most of the time), but isn't it part of parenting?

You kind of signed up for it, didn't you, the day you got pregnant?

A university

Where the students these days download copies of powerpoint displays, annotate them with their recorded lectures and submit word-processed essays...

Oh so you relied entirely on what other people thought was said at meetings?

That's an interesting take on work life...

I have always had an interview-heavy role and I certainly would not rely on other people's ears.

Some universities post podcasts of lectures. And the NUS would like to abolish them altogether (lunatics).

I'm not sure what you mean, Anna. I've never known anybody take their own notes in a meeting where minutes were being done. They always had the chance to be approved at the next meeting, anyway.

I can't imagine being bothered enough to do that in any meeting I've had to sit through, frankly! I might have made the odd note in my diary of anything that was an action point for me, but nothing else.

Crikey!

(boggling at how this thread has diverted from glitter'n'glue mafia to a discussion of work meeting practices)

DS2 had a primary teacher who was obsessed with neat handwriting. Each and every parents' eve she said: "Ugh, G's handwriting" and almost nothing else. His spelling and grammar are excellent it always seemed incredibly petty to me to concentrate on his handwriting being a bit odd.

Seriously, does anyone else take their own extensive notes in meetings which are already being minuted - other than, say, the odd note of time and place of particular appointments relevant to you?

UD - I am sure that it must depend on the type of job you do. I am not used to an "admin person" (?) being present at meetings. What is an "admin person" btw? The kind of meetings I attend are confidential and/or conflictual, and every party had better damn well record exactly what everyone's else's position is!

I don't take notes at meetings. But I always take a pen and paper.

I did once take up a suggestion (from a teambuilding wanktank thing) to draw the meeting table and jot down each attendee's name in order that I might overuse their christian name, Dave. Do you mind if I call you Dave, Dave?

(Started a separate thread on this as it's a side-issue and should derail the discussions here...)

should NOT derail...

An admin person is a member of the admin team. Secretarial. Admin support. Office manager and team. Whatever.

But admin happens in internal meetings, surely? You don't fly to London or Milan for the day with an "admin person" in tow.

I don't fly to London or Milan for the day. Full stop.

French school children have neat handwriting because they are drilled and made to write on paper with lots of lines on it (within the lines iyswim) so that each letter is exactly the same size. Nothing to do with creativity - which is sadly lacking in almost every area of French education! You only have to go to an end of term concert in a French school and see them jigging around to a pre-recorded soundtrack compared to the kind of theatrical extravanzas you get in the English system. Not knocking it - my kids are in there and it has many benefits, but encouraging creativity is not one of them. To return to the original point of the thread - arts and crafts is something my two do with their amazingly artistic Godmother - as a result they are both very artistic, something they would never have got from me or dh!

Handwriting is not a creative activity, though. It's the same as typing - a motor skill.

I agree about the obsession with handwriting-there are far more important things in life. Whoever heard of a doctor with neat handwriting, surely it is one of the essential traits of the job that you must have terrible handwriting? (awaits for several doctors to start throwing wobblies and hides)
Crafty things are about so much more than following on to neat handwriting. I said it before they can be very relaxing and a way for everyone to release stress. They can for some children be seen as a great sense of achievement. Not all kids are good at it, not all kids like it, but the same goes for all subjects.
btw what about woodwork (or does that not count?) do kids still do this at school?

I cannot remember ever being administered 'crafts' by a parent at home and don't think I have suffered too much! I'm reasonably creative, was middle of the class in art at school with the odd 'excellent' and appreciate art. I was the youngest of three so maybe the other two got some craft action before i came along (bit of a gap) but I doubt it TBH and reckon it just wasn't much of a big deal in the 60's / 70's and certainly not something to feel bad about if you didn't do it. Don't we have enough to beat ourselves up about?
So yes, YABU IMO!

My kids don't do much art and craft at home. A few bits over the years, when I allowed myself to be swayed by the "oneupmumship" around, but not much. Any they do now is self-organised.

Please don't worry about them - or feel sorry for them. I try not to neglect them in other ways. I feed them most days, try to get them in to school usually. Restrict their TV viewing to 5 hours a day. Only let them have 3 fruitshoots a week...

This is my job and I wrote loads but deleted it in favour of this.

Being creative just means your children having the chance to create things from their imagination and the parent responding and getting involved if the child wants them to. It doesn't mean sitting down and completing a project. Creativity can mean making a town out of lego instead of using the instructions to make a plane. Creativity can mean ripping up different bits of paper just to see how it looks. Creativity is very important, and it should be allowed in all homes.

That doesn't mean anybody has to go anywhere near one of those stupid kits.

what is your job, law?

I'm a playworker. It's all about encouraging development (socially as well as skills) through play. Basically. In practice it involves lots of paperwork, .

But anyway, I know lots about toys and playing. Little creative projects have a place but only a really minor one, the child taking the lead is far more important, where as most people 'do' crafts together which in practice means the adult is taking the lead and the kid gets virtually nothing from it.

Which is why a craftbox the kids can go into whenever (within reason) is way better than sitting down to do a kit.

ah okeh

Have not read the whole thread, but i HATE crafts of any kind - and there is nowhere I would run away faster from than a 'craft fair' ugggh! So have never done it with the dc, but facilitate by giving them all the messy stuff and then helping to clear up afterwards. Luckily they went to a fantabulous nursery where they did loads of it, and all I had to do was display it proudly on the mantlepiece...
We do loads of other stuff together, but crafts, NO, NO, No, No, No!
So you can feel sorry for 'em if you like, makes no odds to me, but you ill not get me crafting...