for thinking NCT Classes are far too labour focused...

[AliGrylls]

During the NCT classes I attended 4 out of the 6 sessions (12 hours in total) were spent on labour. We spent 3 hours talking about post natal care and 2 hours on breast feeding.

At the time I thought it was good to be prepared for labour and I had planned to have a water birth and assumed it would all go according to my plan. The thought of it made me really excited.

However, things did not go according to plan. I needed to be induced and ended up having a general anaesthetic c-section. After the c-section his father had skin-to-skin contact immediately and when I woke up I fed my baby.

The outcome was ultimately what I wanted. A lovely healthy boy. All those hours that I spent obsessing about the labour made me forget the most important thing - the fact that method of delivery is the least important thing in the process and it is the part of childbirth most of us have the least control over.

In reality the problems and minor worries we have had have been about practical things such as putting on baby grows, nappy changes and how often, how deeply our baby should be asleep. Breast feeding is generally going very well but it is a hard slog and I have so many questions and minor problems that I feel I would have benefitted from more focus on this.

In conclusion, a short period of time spent on the basic facts concerning child birth and the decisions I may need to take during labour and a far longer time on baby care would have been much more useful.

But thank you I may need them after next Monday!

Spam....She may not have mentioned them verbally, but you will surely have got leaflets and info about NCT??? Local branch newsletter with the nos in? Membership details? Magazine with the nos in???

We got something through the post with adverts and announcements in - a newsletter I think. It helpfully included all of the birth annoucements for our ante-natal group except ours. The teacher really didn't like us.

I would have thought that the BF talk lady might have mentioned the numbers etc. But then she was quite busy telling me that normal people who are doing it right never ever experience any problems with BF so maybe i threw her off her stride.

Like I say, I think I had an abnormally poor experience with it all. Which is why I'm always banging on about it! Still rankles TBH.

Don't bet on it. We paid our membership and class money in advance, but nothing official came through until months after our baby was born. Then during that year of membership they repeatedly wrote to me requesting that I join, when I was already a member. I came to the conclusion that the organisation was money-grabbing, very commercial and never renewed, as it left a bad taste.

I really don't agree that practical post-birth skills cannot be discussed beforehand, especially not if that is what class members have requested. Laughing at me when I said I didn't know how to change a nappy was hardly supportive.

There was also far too much focus on all the things that could go wrong, right down to passing round surgical equipment. In my view that's as inappropriate as role-playing a caesarian. It hardly sets couples up for success. All that stuff and the endless banging on about pain relief just succeeded in frightening our class, and even when some of those interventions happened, having seen the equipment in advance did nothing to make it less terrifying.

The thing that I found out later was that I could have paid for the ante-natal classes without having to pay for membership.

I was told that I had to join and then sign up for the classes which is untrue. I was not best pleased when i found out, especially given that I had a poor experience, and would rather have put my charity money elsewhere.

Interesting point ceilidhgirl about equipment etc. eg I am fully aware that orthopaedic proedures make use of plenty of heavy duty black and decker style equipment. I don't see them demonstrating the chisels drills etc to the old dears before they go in for their hip replacements...

Spam, clearly you had a bad experience and one worth complaining about - hope you did

The omission of your birth announcement, though. Lets see - what is the most likely explanation:

• the babies were born after the newsletter deadline
• a simple printers' error
• a simple error on the part of the volunteer editor who puts the newsletter together in her own time
• the teacher forgot to hand the list to the newsletter editor in time
• the antenatal teacher didn't like you and decided to omit the news out of spite

Ceilidhgirl asks for less focus on things that go wrong and Spam complains there was no focus on breastfeeding problems. Hard to please everyone

I think it is a good idea to show surgical equipment, to demystify it. Why would it be impossibly awful for a surgeon to show it to orthopaedic patients?

Well, I guess the differences of opinion explain why Tiktok and all the NCT antenatal teachers who have commented on this thread are v involved with the NCT, but others of us are not .

Interestingly, the friends I have who took no antenatal classes at all before their first births are the ones who had the most positive experiences. It's obviously not a scientific sample, but is in keeping with the thinking of some well know commentators on the subject (e.g. Michel Odent) about too much info not being necessarily helpful to pregnant women and creating the sort of state of mind that is needed for a straightforward labour that progresses under its own steam.

Christ almighty tiktok I really don't think it would be a good idea to show patients squipment before heavy duty ortopaedic surgery. It would scare the living shit out of them.

As for the announcements letter, given that the teacher reduced me to tears twice during the sessions, and babies that were born after mine were included I comfortably go along with 5. she excluded us out of spite.

Interesting that you would concur that the BF woman was correct to refuse to answer any of my questions about BF problems on the basis that "they're so rare there's no point".

This NCT stuff really winds me up actually.

Spam, you need to complain to the NCT.

If there are NCT teachers out there reducing people to tears and BF counsellors dismissing questions, then that needs to be stopped.

It's little wonder the NCT gets a drubbing when there seem to be quite a few people who get bad experiences in their classes.

Spam, I would absolutely not agree with not including problems in the bf class...that makes no sense to me at all. If a bfc does not include problems on the basis that they are so rare there's no point I would seriously question her view of her role. If she is a working bfc (which she has to be, in order to take classes) she will hear from women every day with bf problems.

I cover problems in the bf class, of course I do! I do not cover every problem, but I will deal with every problem that comes up from the class ('my sister had sore nipples' or 'my friend gave up because her baby wouldn't latch on') and more and I will explain how to get help, how to avoid problems and how to distinguish between problems and a lack of confidence in the process.

I really feel for people who have had a bad experience with an NCT class - no organisation can get it right every time, and every so often, someone is bound to mess up royally. I don't know if you complained or not - it is really important to do so.

I should have complained at the time maybe but was too upset and wanted to concentrate on getting on with growing/having the baby. And I did the NHS ante-natal classes as well which were great so I kind of thought it was best to forget the whole fiasco.

Plus it's a local thing and the main woman was a primary school teacher and so I felt it best left IYKWIM. My DC might end up at her school...

Only read op. I went to NHS ante-natal classes, not NCT - 13 years ago - and I found exactly the same thing. Very very little about what you feel like after the birth, how you care for a new baby, breastfeeding issues etc.

"Encouraging women to argue with medically trained professionals is potentially dangerous."

That's absolutely not what the NCT seeks to do.

They try to provide access to information about various procedures so that women are able to evaluate for themselves what they feel best in conjunction with the medical opinions they receive.

The current training for antenatal teachers actively discourages any of their personal values or views being disclosed. If an antenatal teacher is expressing their own personal views, then the clients need to make a complaint about.

If you don't complain, then nothing will change.

Conspiracy against women in labour? Perhaps not but when procedures like making women labour on their backs, stirrups and routine episiotomies have been standard procedures in the past, it does make you think.

A teacher is allowed to present alternatives, and she has to distinguish her contributions to the class so people are aware of the difference between opinion and evidence-based assertions of fact. NCT ethos is firmly against giving advice.

No one should 'advise' eating placenta but those people who do (very few, I am sure!) do so because of the hormonal thing, and there is evidence this is effective. I don't see why this should not come up in a class.

There is evidence that pethidine use in labour is linked to drug use later on - if the teacher says it 'paves the way' then she is overstating the case and this is grounds for complaint. But it is not wrong to bring these possible issues of pethedine into a class of grown up people who are there because they want to know things!

Co-sleeping is a perfectly respectable way to settle a baby, with a solid research base and plenty of ethnographic, biological, endocrinological evidence for it. The majority of UK parents co-sleep at some point....why would you not want to discuss it? There are safety issues that need pointing out, and while it is not 'the only sensible way' it is certainly 'a' sensible way.

A baby experiencing a delay in being given oxygen at a home birth is an indictment of midwifery care, not NCT. I don't see the connection at all, sorry.

Obviously you can't please everyone all the time. Personally I found it reassuring to see the surgical equipment and to have a sense of what each of the options involved. I felt that as a result I was much better placed to make an informed decision in labour - not scaremongering so much as educating. Obviously we all hope that we will not have to experience such procedures but sticking our heads in the sand and pretending it is not a possibility is rather foolish imo ...

I'm afraid my experiences of bf counsellors were, for the most part, so horrific (one was negligent, in the legal sense) that I feel nothing but huge relief that I decided to skip classes, in favour of reading. Given I had a natural birth, in water, with no drugs but gas and air and no internal exams, and the midwife approvingly said (more a statement than a question) "you're very aware of your body - you had NCT classes, didn't you?" after, I can't see I missed out. And the money went towards a decent buggy.

Okay! - as another NCT teacher I thought I'd put my thoughts across.

I personally feel that covering the first couple of weeks after birth are an essential part of my course because it is at this stage parents are most likely to feel overwhelmed and yet not ready to go to other places to meet people and get support. I do about 50/50.

In addition to all the choices and options surrounding all types of birth, I cover postnatal recovery, expectations surrounding the first weeks, PND, accessing support systems and relationship changes. I also cover some practical babycare tasks because at the same time as giving parents confidence that it really isn't that hard we can discuss other baby developmental issues in a non-threatening way including sleep, routines etc.

I feel that a lot of people expect far too much of NCT classes - a group of 8 couples will come for different reasons, have different philosphies on birth and parenting and have different personal needs to each other. Facts are facts however and it is up to the individuals to use them as they wish - the classes are there to explore issues in a safe way with an experienced facilitator. Some facts are challenging and difficult to deal with - pain management drugs have some side effects for either mum or baby or both - pointing this out to a class is not me either promoting 'natural' is best or judging anyone that chooses one of the available options but empowering someone to make a choice that they will be happy with. Equally, the evidence shows that babies can suffer emotionally in the long term if a parent chooses a very strict cry it out parenting routine - this is not me restricting or judging your choices - when you leave the class, you do what you feel is right for your family. Pretending however, that some less than great consequences to some choices are not there just to make people feel better is not part of my job if parents come to classes to inform themselves.

I love what I do and feel that my courses are relaxed, fun and informative - feedback supports this! With hundreds of NCT teachers, however, there are bound to be lots of different approaches and from reading this thread, not all of them ideal...

My NCT class didn't hand round medical equipment.

My hospital class did, and I found it very interesting and useful. Were they trying to scaremonger us out of a hospital birth? And actually, if I'm going to be conscious during any medical procedure I would rather like to know what they are likely to have to use on me. I'm likely to need orthopaedic surgery under local some time soon, and if there's a 20% chance (or something comparable to the rates of instrumental deliveries in childbirth) of their having to use an alarming-looking hammer and chisel on me I would much much much rather be shown them in advance and told "We're going to try to do the operation using a regular scalpel, but if we run into X, Y or Z problems we'll use a chisel like this just here and give it a little tap like this..." rather than wait until I was mid-procedure and have a surgeon approaching me with an unfamiliar and scary-looking chisel and a glint in his eye.

It might be interesting to consider at what stage the feedback is collected. The feedback I would have given on my classes at the end of the course and before giving birth would have been very different than the feedback a few days after giving birth. I can't remember if I was asked for any or at what stage. My short-term satisfaction was probably relatively high, but longer term (after my actual labour and birth) far far lower.

Further up someone said that postnatal classes were for early parenthood not antenatal classes. But, speaking as someone who rarely left the house in the first 8 weeks because of breastfeeding problems and during that time my baby was in hospital part of the time with dehydration (despite having spoken to an NCT BFC who did nothing to alert me to this as a risk with a baby who wasn't feeding well), by the time I would have got to anything like that it would have been a bit late! In that respect I agree with antenatal that it's crucial to cover life with a baby and early practical skills in standard antenatal classes.

I get feedback at the end of the course and at the reunion when the babies are between 3 and 8 weeks old.

There is some evidence to show that what is learnt at an antenatal class is most often put into use for a 2nd pregnancy which I think is interesting...

If a bfc is negligent, then a complaint must be made...just as with anyone else who is trained and working (even voluntarily) under the auspices of an organisation.

Ceilidhgirl, it's sad to hear your experiences but you are expecting a lot of an NCT bfc. She is not able to give medical help or advice, and while a very new baby who is not feeding well does indeed risk dehydration, if all you did was speak to a bfc, she knows you are in touch with a midwife who can see your baby and watch you feed if necessary. When a new mother tells me her baby is not breastfeeding well, I ask her questions that will elicit any health concerns, and I check a midwife is involved. Hospitalisation for dehydration is rare.

If you gave information that should have alerted the bfc to your baby's dehydration, however, then you need to report this....it's serious stuff.

I can say, though, in all honesty, that it is sometimes an NCT bfc who does alert the mother to concerns, which turn out to be real, when the mother has been reassured, wrongly, by the midwife.

My NCT teacher said there was no evidence at all eating a placenta was effective. From what I know of nutrition, I rather believe she's right.

One thing that does bug me about the whole NCT shebang though is precisely that form of words "evidence shows... ". I evaluate statistics a lot for my job and "evidence" needs to be put into context before a decision can be made.

Longttalljosie - NCT teachers are encouraged to properly evaluate the evidence on which current 'best practice' recommendations are based. Actually the NCT runs training workshops for health professionals in how to analyse and understand health research.

You're probably right about placenta eating, longtall....I haven't looked into it recently. May well be a pile of bull! But it is exactly the sort of thing that could come up in an antenatal class and I seriously doubt if a teacher would advise class members to do it.

Of course evidence needs to be evaluated (in another part of my life I do this, too) - NCT has specialists who do this, and develop briefings and documents to share with specialist workers. I think it would be perfectly reasonable for any class member to ask the teacher for the evidence of what she says, and then go and investigate themselves and explore more. I have a list of references - which I keep up to date - at every class I go to, and I say if anyone wants to know more, just ask me.

There may be some aspects of NCT's work that some class members or others don't care for, but the quality of NCT's information is actually pretty good.