to have been stunned by what my friend said about women?

[MsHighwater]

She is older than me - 50s or so - and goes to my church. She and I are also on a local charity committee together. I get on well with her and like her.

At church this morning, we - along with our minister - got into a discussion about yesterday's decision by the General Assembly not to block the appointment of an openly gay minister to a church in Aberdeen. They disapprove, while I support the decision so we were exchanging views about this, quite cordially. In response to the suggestion that this represents the Kirk rejecting the primacy of Scripture, I asked whether the previous ordination of women clergy might not have been regarded as doing the same so we moved on to talking about that. I already knew the minister's views on this but my friend really took my breath away when she gave me her opinion about the place of women.

She thinks that women should not do certain jobs - including doctor, dentist, pilot. She also said, quite seriously, that she checks beforehand if she is flying to ensure her flight has a male pilot and would leave the plane if she found that the pilot was female (not that I think she has actually done this!). ???

Sounds like a very silly lady to me, with too much time on her hands worrying about unimportant matters, ignore her!

Message withdrawn

totally outrageous and unbelievable - surely she wouldn't ruin her holiday because the pilot was female?
what if she needed a life-saving operation and the only available surgeon was a woman?
bonkers barmy mad.

Do you think she was trying to impress the minister with her submissiveness? I wouldn't hold it against her though could obviously do with a crash course in equal opportunities. And don't let her give your daughters careers advice!! Btw, what's your minister's view on women clergy - if he's anti, should you not be posting about him first??

In summary, confuseddd, he believes that women were ordained because the church faced a shortage of ministers and had no option. He believes that it is more appropriate for men to be spiritual leaders but also says that he would rather have a godly woman than an ungodly man. There are several female elders in our church, many of whom will have become elders during his tenure there, and the Session Clerk (principal Elder, if you like) is also female.

But then, he also upholds and promotes the "liberty of opinion" that the Church of Scotland holds dear and will happily engage in perfectly cordial discussion with people who disagree about various issues. Although I wish he didn't think this way, at the time of our conversation this morning, I knew he held this view and it didn't come as any surprise to me (nor did my views on the subject shatter any illusions he had about me!). But my friend's statements came out of left field. I haven't known her long and don't know her well so the subject just hasn't come up before. Also, it's not a dealbreaker - our relationship with each other does not have to depend on us agreeing about stuff like this. It's something we can, I'm sure, just agree not to discuss (although I might just have to have a go at challenging her about it)

sometimes, the less we know about people, the better it is.

She's very young to think this way. Extraordinary. Maybe it's defensiveness as she never had the opportunity or guts to go for something herself, and secretly feels a bit wasted because of it.

I read once about a middle aged man feeling bitterness whenever he saw somebody brilliant at something not anything he could have achieved, but anything a wonderful female ballet dancer, anything -- just because it reminded him of what he saw as his failure in living an ordinary life.

Maybe it's something like that.

She is very ignorant. Ignore these siily rants. But, of course, remain friends with hor. Life would be very boring if I only made aquaintances with whom I agree on everything.

But, I would certainyl tell her how her views died at the end of the Virctorian era and why that's a good thing.

I wonder if she thinks her opinion should be heard... and if she exercises her right to vote.

I would think she's a bit of a div but I wouldn't be "stunned".

I admire you for engaging in debate with him and feel that this woman probably displayed a lack of courage and solidarity, perhaps because she was aware of his views and wanted to back him up. Does she really think these things - it does seem odd? Like you say, you can avoid the subject and keep it light - but I always think without strong women who spoke up, we would still be excluded from the professions, without the vote, limited rights in law and subject to the whims of our male relatives. I agree - challenge her!

It's unusual but it's not unheard of - up until a few years ago, I used to think the same way as your friend.
I have a horrid feeling it's going to be making quite a comeback as an opinion.

Oh God, this reminds me of when I was about 22 and working in a big Optical chain, I was one of 5 optometrists on duty. I was approached by a woman in her 40's whose daughter had just had an eye examination by my ( female) colleague. the diagnosis was that the daugher didn't need glasses. The daughter who was suffering from eyestrain was in tears as she had thought that spectacles would be the answer to her problems. I looked at the eye examination result and explained to the mother and daughter that I agree with my colleague, that the problem was not that the daughter needed glasses but that she was simply studying too hard. To which the mother replied
"I saw men there, testing eyes. Could she see a man?" I was so that I had to walk away and leave it to a floor assistant to deal with them.
What upset me was not that the woman was demanding a second opinion but that the fact that it was a woman who had given the first opinion was what swayed her towards this demand. What kind of message was she sending to that daughter?