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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

.....re the Baby P case and others like...

135 replies

JimJammum · 06/05/2009 20:40

I realise that, as the death penalty is no longer in effect, and assuming someone doesn't get hold of those scums and d the job we all want done....Is is unreasonable to expect that anyone male or female found guilty of child abuse should be sterilised??? At least then they wouldn't be able to have any more kids themselves to neglect, seeing as SS are unable to protect them.

While I'm ranting on the subject, I give money every month to NSPCC and have been called today by fundraisers for Save the Children....where are these charities and their support in cases such as this?? Can't SS use them and their funds/workers/whatever to assist them if necessary? Am I being too simplistic?

OP posts:
bosch · 06/05/2009 22:03

I think its good that mumsnet is a place where you can ask questions that you wouldn't drop into the conversation at school gate.

And if you think the question is moronic then its worth explaining why you think the op is wrong. Its OK for the op to have a different point of view from you.

Its better for points of views to be expressed than for MNers to think 'HBLB will be down on me like a tonne of bricks if I type that so I'll just lurk'...

Joolyjoolyjoo · 06/05/2009 22:08

I don't agree with sterilisation- as others have said, it isn't only parents who abuse/ neglect children, unfortunately.

I also don't think it's particularly productive to blame SS- they are doing a difficult job, and I imagine many of the people they are dealing with are evasive and good at covering up what is going on, not to mention also potentially violent. Also, legalities are often working against the social workers, and everyone knows their rights nowadays, don't they?

I do think society as a whole should feel some shame- we seem to keep so much to ourselves nowadays, and noone wants to "interfere" or been seen to interfere. Surely someone somewhere must notice if this level of abuse is happening in their street/ community? Or have we really come that far that these children and their woes are invisible to the rest of us? I know SS are paid to deal with these cases, but that shouldn't let the rest of us off the hook.

The thing that shocks me most in all this is the doctors who are paid to be the experts and who don't even bother examining the child- no excuse for that in my book. They need to do their job properly too. I don't see it as being just one person's fault- these cases shouldn't be able to all through so many potential safety nets- local community, then SS, then medical professionals. AS for the parents/ people responsible- yes, they are the scum of the earth and I could never understand or find it in myself to forgive them, but thankfully that's not up to me. I agree with locking them up and forgetting about them, and focussing on the victims, for whom we CAN do something.

Bit of an aside, but I recently watched the Holloway thing on young female offenders, and was depressed at how many of them had beem oon the "at-risk" register since they were babies, but only taken from their abusive/ neglectful parents when they were 14 or so, and had endured years of it- which seemed to be too late, if they fact they ended up screwed up and in jail was anything to go by

HerBeatitudeLittleBella · 06/05/2009 22:08

OK let me give you 3 names, people who have been convicted of child abuse

Sally Clark
Angela Cannings
Donna Antony

That's just one reason why the premise is stupid.

But it's the overall couching of the argument - it's thick. ... the job we all want done - wtf does that mean exactly?

MillyR · 06/05/2009 22:08

OP said: 'assuming someone doesn't get hold of those scums and d the job we all want done'

Surely you don't need an explanation as to why that is moronic?

StercusAccidit · 06/05/2009 22:12

As ever, if you do something that is irreversible (death, sterilisation - well, hard to reverse) and then realise that you got it wrong, miscarriage of justice, its a bit awkward if you have to say 'sorry about that, err, bye'

SS don't seem to find it awkward to take kids and have them adopted, which is irreversible...
Then when the parent/s are proven innocent, it really IS a matter of 'sorry about that, err, bye'

Shit happens.

IMO child sexual predators give up their human rights when they take away the life/rights of an innocent child.

HerBeatitudeLittleBella · 06/05/2009 22:14

Well it's lucky your opinion isn't the effing law then.

Some of us want to live in a civilised society. Some of us aren't bovvered.

MillyR · 06/05/2009 22:14

Human rights are a legal not moral requirement, so your opinion on them is irrelevant.

MillyR · 06/05/2009 22:15

Sorry HBLB, keep x posing with you.

kidowner · 06/05/2009 22:16

I would like to train as a social worker and have looked into it.

I did my 1st degree years ago and did not take up the opportunity to do the postgrad certif. in social work as I didn't feel I was mature enough.

Several years working in education and many children later I feel I'd be suitable. But there are no openings for me, only M.A 2 yrs full time miles away from where I live.

Something is very wrong when there are social worker shortages but few routes into it for well educated and experienced mums who wish to retrain.

HerBeatitudeLittleBella · 06/05/2009 22:17

Thank God for that Milly

kidowner, agree with you

glastocat · 06/05/2009 22:18

YABVVU

Agree with HBLB

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 06/05/2009 22:18

you can do it through open university - part time if you want.

Lizzylou · 06/05/2009 22:22

Thankyou Stewie for putting so well what I wanted to say (but had tried and failed )

"The Nazis forcibly sterilised people they deemed unworthy. We do not want to follow their lead."

Abused children often end up as abusers, through no fault of their own, because that's all they know. Sterilise them/kill em? Great, what a fab idea!

I was friends with a girl who had been abused by her brother, who in turn had been abused by their Uncle, and it turns out the Grandfather in their family had abused her Mother and Uncle.

Shoot em all

bosch · 06/05/2009 22:24

Well actually HBLB, I don't suppose that op was thinking of Sally Clark, Angela Cannings and Donna Antony when she started her thread.

Actually, when I think of miscarriages of justice, I think of birmingham 6/guildford 4 - people for whom the phrase was almost invented. But not top of everyone's minds today.

I think the language is worth examining - 'the job we all want done' - but actually what the op wants if to find a way to stop horrid things happening and sterilisation is a strange way of securing that.

Well actually wanting to stop horrid things happening is not all that moronic. And coming up with a simplistic way of securing that is easier than trying to resolve all of societies problems.

Somebody should have been doing their job better, or maybe Baby P's stepfather/mum's bf should have had better care when he was growing up/ or maybe some people are just so messed up they should be put in mental hospital, but then you look at people who spent decades in mental institutions and realise that all they did was have sex before marriage in the 1930's (blah blah blah)

It would be lovely if the world was perfect but its not and in the meantime, people have different ways of expressing how they would make the world perfect. You may disagree with some. You should give them the courtesy of a considered response.

kidowner · 06/05/2009 22:25

You need to be sponsored to do it through OU.

poorbuthappy · 06/05/2009 22:34

What should we do with people who rape 2 year old children?

I see the problem as the fact that people who do this are not criminals as such - they are sick people to whom no deterrent is ever going to be enough to stop them doing the horrendous things they do.

So, we need to seperate them from society and also from the other criminals/prisoners in society. And maybe simply accept that they have no place in society and are locked up and forgotten about. Would anyone object to paying more tax in order to make sure these people aren't a threat anymore, and making sure that these children are protected?

But this leads to another question: how much money is wasted each year which could be used to save the kids? That's a whole other thread...

bosch · 06/05/2009 22:37

Think I agree with your entire post poorbuthappy.

HerBeatitudeLittleBella · 06/05/2009 22:38

I disagree with you Bosch.

The Original Post isn't worthy of a considered response.

Sorry about that.

HerBeatitudeLittleBella · 06/05/2009 22:40

I'm sorry but the idea that every stupid idea put forward is worthy of a considered response is a recipe for a really stupid website.

And I think there are simply enough of them out there. There's a massive shortage of the other type.

bosch · 06/05/2009 22:43

Lets agree to differ HBLB

But would be interested on another thread to find out why you need to respond to ops that aren't worthy of a (considered) response.

taxiservice · 06/05/2009 22:44

What's 58 million for social services going to achieve?

Will it ensure paediatricians are capable of diagnosing a broken back?

Will it ensure that when a police officer leaves his office he remembers to pass on a pending arrest warrant on a serious case to his next in line? Or make sure that the police photographer can turn up before the bruises had faded?

Will it ensure that psychopaths and child rapists are kept well away from children and vulnerable adults with children?

Will it ensure that women with post natal depression are given medical help?

Social services couldn't have done more than they did, they were let down by the medical profession and the police.

There are too many families in crisis, throwing more social workers at them won't help. The underlying causes - cycles of violence coupled with poor housing, poor medical and mental health care, drug and alcohol abuse - are the real cause of these childrens' deaths. Not forgetting Nazi knife-toting psychopaths of course.

bosch · 06/05/2009 22:50

My £58m comment was in the context of OP suggesting that charities £ could be diverted to ss.

I did think that there was general acceptance that not filling sw posts was a significant cause of problems in Haringey, Doncaster etc... Do agree other services have critical role to play.

AnitaBlake · 06/05/2009 22:53

Seriously, in this case where was Peters father? When he was placd on the at risk register, was his dad even considered as an alternative carer? In families that where the parents are seperated, why is this not a viable alternative?

HerBeatitudeLittleBella · 06/05/2009 22:55

Because Bosch, I have a sort of kneejerk energy to say oh FGS please fuck off morons, while being too depressed and discouraged to actually bother to try and engage because I know that it's basically pointless.

Hope that answers your question.

StercusAccidit · 06/05/2009 23:07

Yes well i will consider my opinion to be a waste of time in my next life when i haven't been SAb and neither has my DD, why should i care about the so-called human rights of these monsters? Ok, so it affects them for life. Getting a job, having kids, no one ever considers them 'healed' 'rehabilitated'...

I hope my DD's abuser suffers for life.

She has. What happened to her rights? We had to move house because it was his RIGHT to walk past our house during the time the court case was going on, and give her menacing looks.

Walk past her school doing the same thing.

This is AFTER terrorising her in her own home, in her own bed, the one place she should have been safe.

Good job its only my opinion. Good job he had police protection too because i would have happily done time for the wanker.

Swipe left for the next trending thread