to think 51% tax is ridiculous, and already to be planning to move to Asia

[hedgiemum]

Namechanged. Married to someone who earns well in excess of £150,000 a year, though neither does he earn 7 figures.
He is still quite young in his career - a recent promotion to a senior position, but has not been earning this kind of money of long, so we still have a mortgage and haven't saved large amounts (what we have saved is through his pension which is no longer going to be particularly worth doing.)

He phoned me a minute after end of budget to say he'd watched it with his boss whose reaction was that he would move the company (not a bank, but in finance) to Asia. Probably Hong Kong - 12% tax rather than the 51% we'd be paying here.

Seems like a kneejerk reaction, and clearly we can afford to pay more, but boss doesn't feel he'll get good productivity from staff if they are getting to take home less than half their income. Plus it decreases ever-present risk of them being headhunted by companies in lower-tax economies.

AIBU to be PLEASED (I used to hate tax exiles.) Partly because it just does not seem fair. Partly because this country has been run so badly by New Labour of whom we had such high expectations, and the medical care we have received has been shite, the local schools are shite, the roads are insanely busy and yet is costs so much to live here.

"Paid overtime in the public sector is pretty much a given"

I work for the NHS and paid overtime may be a given for clinical staff (because there aren't enough of them to provide services) but there's no way I or any of my colleagues would ever get paid overtime (non-clinical). We don't get TOIL either.

The same is true (in my organisation anyway) for any non-clinical staff and all managers over the basic grades.

I have never ever in my life as a public sector worker been paid overtime. On the contrary I have worked five days and been paid for 4 because there was no money to pay my wage.

but isn't it just bad long term planning to raise taxes too much.

at one point the top tax bracket was 90% in the UK. The UK LOST tax as so many wealthy people became tax exiles.

also, to compensate for this, companies raise the salaries of their top execs. so instead of giving a 10k rise, they give a 20k rise, as they know how much is being paid in tax. that then enables those people to get larger mortgages, and raise the cost of housing ...

neither of those are good for the economy, and it becomes difficult to encourage businesses to invest in the UK. We don't want all the finance companies leaving, we want them paying co tax in the UK.

a very short sighted move.

Nancy66 -"Paid overtime in the public sector is pretty much a given" Where are you getting this information from?
I certainly don't get paid for the extra half hour/hour which I (and my colleagues)inevitably work each shift to ensure that paperwork is done/patients are sorted/relatives spoken with before going home.
If public sector workers were paid for the
actual hours they worked, then I think you might need to increase taxation levels even further to fund it

ok - so I got that wrong! message received.

hands Nancy a rope to pull herself out of the hole>>>>>>>>>>

pull myself out? A high earner like me? i'll get someone to do it for me...

Crumbs! Without reading the entire thread....I am also tempted to say bon voyage! The argument about being "offered" other posts in the world by head hunters IS a rather tiresome one, and is trotted out by people who 'threaten' us wit hthe loss of their 'talent'. I do suspect that mostly it is a loss we will happily endure in the short and long term. We are a very rich nation re talent ( not just Ms Boyle!).

And re overtime payments, I echo all before and TSAP and Shona, I have never been provided with such things in 20 years of employment. And neither would I want it, as it would otherwise provide work for someone else.

PMSL - ok hang on I'll do it for you make sure you don't pay me too much though - don't want to go over my £20 a week limit from IS

Just the very generous minimum wage...

I think the ethos is very different in the public sector as you are always very aware that you are paid out of the public purse. I know that any extra money I take means the children get less and without sounding pious that makes me feel uncomfortable. My previous school ran out of money and was running at a deficit, teachers were being made redundant, teaching assistants were not having their contracts renewed, classesmade bigger and cut backs being made. As a head of year earning in the region of 40K I could not claim that wage with a clear conscience. I now idealistically I was wrong as the public sector is underfunded as it knows it is full of hair socialists like me who are easily walked over. But in the short term I could not see local children from very poor backgrounds being failed. I was not alone many managers within the school made a similar decision.

yea that'll do >>>>>

OMG - it has just taken me over 2 hours to read this thread (and I skim read some of it) V V interesting to read all the differing points of view. But after all that I haven't got anything to add that hasn't already been said!!!

and can I just say...........that for a thread on this sort of subject matter that's reached over 500 posts it's actually been remarkably restrained and polite and interesting

Well it is half three in the morning and I have just finished marking and planning, I am up to finish off in three hours. I may get up ten minutes early to fill in my overtime sheet! It sure is a cushy life this public sector lark.

I hate to burst the OP's bubble, but life has a way of evening these things out.

Having lived in Hong Kong for seven years, I can tell you that yes, tax is indeed much lower than the UK. The government rakes in so much in corporate tax and also has a monopoly on gambling, so income tax can be kept low. But what is vastly more expensive there than in the UK is space. If you wanted your DCs to have separate bedrooms, you could EASILY be looking at GBP4-10,000 per month in rent, and that wouldn't be anything special (that would be a flat in a nice part of the city or a very ordinary house with a tiny garden way, way out of town - at the top end of that estimate you'd probably have a pool in the apartment compound, at the bottom you probably wouldn't. Maybe a view until one of the property conglomerates that runs Hong Kong buys the land in front of you and builds your view out with five 60-storey blocks of flats).

GBP150,000 isn't a vast household income in expat Hong Kong. Comfortable, but not truly flush. If you're looking at four sets of private school fees, four sets of debenture fees to jump the queue for the schools, six or twelve return airfares a year and enough space so you're not in each other's pockets, life in HK will chew through your money just as quickly as life in the UK.

The schools are fabulous, assuming your DCs don't have any sort of additional need. My boss sent her DD to one of the private international schools. She had to spend GBP1500 at a private clinic to have her DD diagnosed as dyslexic. I said oh, that's great, now at least she'll get the help she needs at school. My boss looked at me like the naive childless numpty I was at the time, and told me that the schools are so oversubscribed that if you need any sort of learning support they simply chuck you out, because they know they can fill your place tomorrow.

By all means go for the culture, the adventure or to set your DCs up with an understanding of the economic superpower of the future (anyone who doesn't think China will be calling the economic shots from now on is a fool). But don't go purely because you think it's going to be cheaper.

Was just about to say something similar to Ninedragons, but about Singapore (which also has "low" taxation).

We've been here 12 years (came to travel/better job opportunities rather than as tax exiles). Not rich by any means, but with 2 of us working are comfortable.

But rent here is expensive, food costs for "Western" food are ridiculous, cars are expensive (we did without for 8 years), education and healthcare cost money, and we have to spend a lot of money if we want our parents to see their grandchild.

I'm not complaining; this is the life we've chosen, but we're not rich by any means. We're planning to move to Australia in a few years time, and think the higher tax will be justified by the public services we'll gain.

But Asia can be more expensive than it seems.

(I write this as a reasonably hard-working person who is currently recovering from surgery which cost me 10,000 pounds as my health insurance (2,500 for the family per year) won't pay, therefore have time to doss about reading this . However I consider myself lucky as a friend of mine is facing a 100,000 pounds bill for care for her premature baby)

See, hedgie? Your mistake was starting your thread when we Asians were fast asleep

FWIW, we gave up the 12.5% tax cap and moved to Shanghai for two years (unavoidable for professional reasons) and then home to Australia. Family, open space and fresh air are worth more to us than a 38 percentage point tax increase.

I do agree, however, that I wouldn't have been so happy to pay all that extra money to the British government to bomb Iraq and bail out banks that were reckless to the point of stupidity. Happy to pay it to the Aussie government, though. I love ferries and $3 toddler playgroups and English classes for refugees and world-class medical care (though to be fair the HK system is truly outstanding).

I haven't read the whole thread. I know nothing about tax threshholds and havens. I don't mind paying taxes but I resent paying higher taxes than others. I have worked really hard to get where I am. I don't use any more public services than someone on half my income. Why should I be punished for working hard to get somewhere in life?

I get really fed up of people's jealousy and sarcasm about high wage earners. Why do people get so bitter about people who either have the good fortune to earn a lot of money or have worked bloody hard to get where they are?

My dh and I are FINALLY on really good salaries and I feel like I apologise for it in some form or another on a weekly basis. Comments about us "not having to struggle" or "must be nice for some". WE HAVE EARNED IT!!! But people don't care about that. They don't see the last 15 years working our bums off and going without they just see where we are now.

We both started with lowly jobs. We both worked 2 jobs for several years to get by. At jobs we hated. When I had our first baby I took maternity leave to stay home and we were dirt poor. Our bills were months behind. But it was important to us both. My dh is self educated and good at his job. He didn't go to Uni. He is a hard worker. He has been shafted many times with employers but he never gave up. I work 5 nights a week at a job most people think they are too good for. But it is very good money (no nothing sexual or illegal) and I like it.

So why do I deserve to pay higher taxes? Why do I have to feel guilty for making good money?

I just wanted to say that unless you have lived in another country, then don't complain about Britain's medical care, roads or schools. Wait until you have to pay to go to see the Doctor with your ill child, over and over again. Don't forget to pay your ambulance insurance every month.

g-mark - you really need to read some of the thread at least. becuase your questions have been answered.

GMarks- I am now intruiged to know what your night job is.

"pointydog - that is how many people who work in the City really work all the time. I am not saying it is good but people who work elsewhere in the economy often do not have any concept of how extraordinarily hard City people really work. A 70 hour week is not at all uncommon every single week of the year.

I have done exactly what hedgiemum DH does. No lunch break, just a sandwich at the desk, no other breaks, just 12 hours straight trading in front of 4 computer screens with 2000 constantly changing numbers on them, never moving from my desk, except for the loo and coffee and then not very often. Then home for sleep and food and back again."

Sorry Abetadad I disagree with ALL of this, yes there are people who work 70 hours a week every week and there are people who never see daylight but actually in the number of people who work in the city it's a very small number. There are a lot of other high earning jobs in the city apart from trader. Corporate finance, fund management, all high paying jobs with the ability to get to the doctors and have lunch if they just took there heads out of their arses (actually a disclaimer I know some very nice financiers).

Ninedragons has excellent points. But expats have other tax advantages. Many countries allow expats to pay tax only on the days they are in the country, in addition to having a low tax rate. For a travelling employee this can be significant. And if you are relocated by a company the disadvantages diminish: rent, school fees and air fares may be included in the package. Some even pay the mortgage of the empty house in the UK, a fact I found utterly astonishing. And company relocations will offer accountants to "manage" tax.

What comes across most of all on this thread is that most people have little objection to paying higher taxes IF they are getting good services. But it seems that if you are looking for value for money, people feel you don't get it: and if you are looking for worthy spending, people feel that isn't achieved either. For example, I loathe the fact that NHS care staff are often paid poorly compared to the managers who follow them around counting beds.

But this is the cry down the years: yes, tax me, but spend it the way I want you to spend it. We have learned over generations to live with this -- with the quid pro quo as "no taxation without representation".

No system is perfect, but this is what we have chosen.

I can't think of a country with satisfactory public services which does not have relatively high taxation. Perhaps Singapore, but its system of state control is so complete I feel that is not what many people would chose for themselves as "locals".

FWIW In Belgium, with its significantly higher taxes than the UK, you are still paying for your medical treatment. You have to take out insurance with a mutuality, or you pay through a private insurance. The mutuality is not expensive, but it's not the NHS.

You can vote at the ballot, or you can vote with your feet, but in the end, you can still vote.

"Why do people get so bitter about people who either have the good fortune to earn a lot of money or have worked bloody hard to get where they are?"

Why are people who have to pay a higher rate of tax so bitter about helping out people who have been less fortunate than themselves?