to be shocked that it's common in the 'best' primary round here for children to have tutors to get the through SATS and then the children are streamed on ability (ie test scores)

[wotnopulling]

i can't believe this. it's so depressing. are tutors for SATS common (thought they were meant to test the teaching not the children). Do all schools stream according to ability?!

I said nothing of the sort! Where did you get that from?

"2. Background means that children arrive at school having already learnt different things - there are huge differences in vocabulary and social skills between three year olds, for example, dependent on what their parents have already passed on to them. "

Maybe i misunderstood you then - because surely these are the children who NEED MORE input into their education and would i suppose benefit from streaming for that reason. Ah yes, that is probably what you mean? My mistake - sorry

Absolutely - children arriving with less vocabulary and fewer social skills at three years old need different (and more) teaching resources to children arriving with more vocabulary and social skills.

I don't know how i feel about streaming to be honest, yes i recognise that it is necc especially at secondary school. But it does create "issues" between children - It was often that the children from the top group wouldnt want to be seen with children from bottom groups etc. I was in the top group for english and science at school, middle group for maths and the politics of who to sit with etc etc - it was not pretty . Also, and my DP has commented on this - what tends to happen, sadly, in the less "able" groups, is that the teaching becomes secondary to crowd control, i guess the children are struggling for various reasons. My DP was in the bottom group at secondary school - he says it was awful, kids threatening the teacher, throwing books out of the window etc etc - he learnt nothing. WHEN his teacher was off school following a nervous breakdown she was replaced by the scary headmaster - everyone bucked down to their tasks, and my DP miraculously moved UP two groups the next year. But of course, too late to make much difference

I don't of course have the answers to how to make it all fair. But a system that favours the better off children is certainly not the way to go.

why can't people tell the difference between 'equality' and 'uniformity'? uniformity in education would be a bad thing - it would mean every child getting exactly the same education taught in the same way regardless of ability, talent or application.
equality means all children get an education which is equally good for all - they get it tailored to their needs but they're equal in the eyes of the providors (eg i don't treat my children the same but i love them equally)

We already have an underclass that can't read and write, in this day and age it's a disgrace.

Lemagain, by tutoring I mean practice papers, ensuring times times are up to scratch, it's technique more than anything else, if you see an 11+ paper for the first time the day you sit the test then you haven't a chance of passing it.
Things like knowing how to pace yourself, when to leave a question, how to remember to go back to the question all gives you an advantage on the day.
And if you fail you can always appeal and the grammar school will then look at your sats all the way back to year 2, hence why people tutor for them I guess.

But sorrento, you don't need a tutor to teach your child to do that, surely? Can you not do it? Thats sounds critical but its not - i just think that we are too competitive on our childrens behalves these days. Reading your paragraph reminds me of the sort of prep i did for my degree exams - it saddens me that our ten and eleven year olds are under the same sort of pressure. Its very sad.

It's not very sad at all, yes i could do it if I wasn't at work trying to keep a roof over our heads which by then will be the case no doubt. What is very sad is the fact that because 50% of students are being pushed into university differentiating yourself from the rest has never been harder so we need to go all the way back to 11/12 years old to try and do that.
When the nonsense about half the population going to uni just to get a job in a call centre and owe £30k to the government stops then things can return to normal, the bright children will do well, they always have with or without a tutor.

Tutoring for SATS. Never heard of it.

I was talking to a woman at the weekend who had her soon tutored for getting into a really top Prep school at age 8. She admits making his life miserable and how he hated it so much he began to not like school at all.

I do wish parents would just lay off their kids a bit and get some perspective.

idranktheeasterspirits, is it a state school that is streaming from Y2 - I have never heard of that before.

There might be some misunderstanding of terms here, though -
Streaming usually means children put into a class for all their lessons according to ability.
Setting usually means grouping children within a class (or a year group) according to ability for specific subject teaching, like maths.
Most primary schools group children within a class according to ability for at least some of the time - to teach reading / maths, and these groups can change according to progress, etc.

Tutoring for SATS is part of the new govt initiative called APP (assessing pupil progress) This may be what the school are doing? It's been really helpful in my school to spend time one to one with children who are struggling/confused. APP is also hopefully going to mean the end of SATs weeks in May and start single level tests when children are ready.

here

Sorrento, sorry, i worded that very badly - i just meant all the pressure our children are under generally that is sad. I know the feeling re the working bit, that will be me, it was me - but i would honestly think you have to spend no more than about half an hour at the weekend AT MOST to familiarise your children with the test. They also do loads of practice runs at school to. trouble is, its a catch 22, because everyone else is pushing and jostling for the best schools if you sit back and let things carry on normally, you will always be asking yourself if you did enough. Thats what i find sad - not that you personally are putting pressure on your children.

Couldnt agree more about the university thing.

of course, if I had passed my eleven plus, maybe my grammar might be half acceptable

Wotnopulling - this is v. interesting as my dc's at local high-performing primary

Each year approx 30%-50% of each Y6 class goes to private secondary or a more distant grammar (we border a grammar area). So these children are tutored for those exams, which slightly skews the class. This means a bright child who is not tutored can appear to be 'failing' in Y6 - they're not, it's just everyone else is tutored, and the class pace tends to leave the 'average' behind.

The school has 'booster groups' in Y6 which is for those who may be borderline eg between L4/L5, L3/L4 for their SATS. This is really good because the 'average' children (ie my own dc's )get that little extra help and attention away from the tutored half of the class. I wouldn't call this tutoring.

HOWEVER ... I was shocked to discover that many parents also arranged for out-of-school private tutoring for SATS. I'm not sure why this is - possibly because they may feel their own dc's so far 'behind' the tutored children; parental competitiveness; setting at secondary; or a mixture of all 3. Local secondaries do their own testing on arrival and set according to this rather than SATS results. The children who were privately tutored for SATS to artificially boost scores have not maintained that position at secondary.

bigtillymint - yes it is a state school. The children are streamed,not in sets. It's a common thing in the LEA that we fall under.
lemagain - there is a need to tutor for 11+ not because of a lack of ability or suitability for grammar school but because state primaries aren't allowed to prepapre a child for 11+.
In my LEA the 11+ consists of three elements. Verbal reasoning, Literacy and Maths. (the 11+ format varies according to where you are in the country)
The verbal reasoning counts for 50% of the mark and the child will have to answer each question withing 30 seconds to stand a chance of finishing the paper and getting enough marks to be offered a place.
Although dd is fine for maths and literacy, her state school does not teach verbal reasoning so she needs to learn that. She also needs to learn exam techniques, i am shite at exams and would be crap at coaching her so i think it is best in our case to employ someone. She isn't hothoused though, she does 1hr per fortnight.

Another factor that will affect whether or not people tutor for 11+ is that grammar schools are massively oversubscribed, here we have approx 12 applicants for each grammar place. Competition is fierce and some do tutor from a very early age for it (think Yr2).

I don't want dd to be under any pressure to pass and we shall be applying to a couple of independent secondaries as well as grammar. I prefer the grammar school as it has lovely pastoral care and fab facilities etc, but if dd misses out on a place it wont be the end of the world if you see what i mean.

I reckon about half the children in DS1s class are tutored outside school and, yes, we're in North London. DS1 has been for 3 years and it was actually suggested by his Yr 2 teacher (the first time she told me she had recommended it for any pupil). She was right as it turns out that he is dyslexic and naturally reticent in public. He learns a huge amount in that dedicated one-to-one hour. There just simply isn't sufficient teacher-time in class to cater for pupils of differing eductaional and cultural needs. Other parents have different priorities, but here it's not about getting into a better secondary - they're nearly all going on to the local one. I really don't think it's about being competitive as in "Jonny did better than Tommy", either. I think it's simply about people not having sufficient time (because they're working) to sit with their children and iron out their learning problems and just wanting to help.

The competition to get into grammar school or trying to get into a or secure a scholarship at an independent school seems to be the driver of tutoring. Not the SATS. Its like an arms race. People fear that if they do not do it their child will miss out.

I just refused to take apart and sent our kids to independent school that was less competitive even though DS1 would have passed the entry exam for the local ultra competitive national league table topping indepenent school that everyone else was tutoring their kids like crazy for.

I just thought it was an insane race doing kids no good and I am glad you are being relaxed Idranktheeasterspirits about it as well.

Insane race ... that sums it up. My dd was one of only 10 untutored children in Y6 and she did very well in SATS. At least I can tell her she did it all under own steam in own way.

My ds is now Y5 and another non-tutoring mum and I worked out that 50% already being tutored ...

Tutoring for SATS is stupid.

Streaming is perfectly reasonable - DS1 & 2 (10 & 8) are working a year above their peer group in maths at the moment. Should they be held back to the level of the least adept pupil or should the least adept be forced to do stuff which is beyond them? They are streamed (or rather "grouped by ability") for maths and english from about Y1 in their school. Whilst the groups are not called Clever Average and Thick, each child is perfectly aware of what the group names mean but it doesn't bother them. they can move up or down groups as appropriate.

DS1 is having tutoring to help him pass the entrance exam for a local private school. Not because he isn't capable of doing it intelligence-wise but because he won't have seen the types of question they ask - private primary pupils will have.

If we weren't following this route, his choice would be a reasonable high school for which his primary is not a feeder school - he could easily miss out on a place if all the children from the further away feeder schools took up their places or.. well, I guess the cr*p high school which is closing at the end of the summer and reopening as an "academy". Which will make f-all difference unless they get shot of all the pupils & teachers too. Or he could apply for the out-of-borough grammar school(s) but again, he'd need tutoring to be able to know what the questions are asking. We were prepared for 11+ in school and private tutoring is not really any different to this.

Our school definitely streams according to ability. There are 3 classes per year, above, average and below and then groups within that for maths etc. It makes complete sense.
I moved my boys to this school because of it. ds1 is in top groups of top class and ds2 is in lower groups of average and needs extra support.
They used to go to a 1 class per 1 or 2yr school and it was a disaster!
Both ds' in the same class, wildly differing abilities and everything in between. No-one benefited from that.
ds1 will be going to a tutor for some 11+ practice next year but it will be minimal.
The school have already looked at verbal and non verbal reasoning in yr 4 and have told us they will be supporting a grammar school application.

My father was a tutor in a working class area in the North of England. Some of the children are tutored for KS2 SATs and some for KS1 SATs. Some of the parents would find it very difficult to help their own children with school work. I don't think tutoring for SATs is unusual, but I think parents keep quiet about it.

I don't understand why tutoring for SATS would happen - aren't the results meaningless for an individual child? They aren't like an 11+, entrance exam or GCSEs are they?

Some secondary schools do stream on the basis of KS2 SATs. Our local comprehensive does.

OUr school does what BTM mentions - setting rather than streaming. And for different subjects. So humanities taught in the form group. Then there are about 4 different sets for literacy and numeracy. With innocuous names (i.e. in literacy, floppy group, biff group, kipper group and in maths, square, triangle, circle).

I think it means there is a good balance. The children all mix well, but there is an understanding of the different educational needs of the pupils. Also an understanding that a child can excel at literacy but fall behind at numeracy.

Ohhh...I think I've just shown my ignorance then. I thought that setting was streaming.