to be in my 30s and still not have learnt how to budget effectively? How much should a family of four be able to live on?

[Notintheknow]

It's been established on another thread that talking about money in real life is social suicide. I don't think mumsnet counts and am also prepared for a complete battering. So, here's the thing.

At the moment DP earns a really good salary. We live well within our means. I've recently started working for myself but income is really variable. But DP is thinking of leaving his job and retraining so we'll have little or no income for a while and even after that, far less than we've been used to. (He has my complete support btw.) We sat down last night and worked out our outgoings, which are unnecessarily high. There are some obvious things we can cut (we have a cleaner once a week) but what should I be aiming to cut down to? How much can a family of four in London reasonably live on? And how does it break down? (Our mortgage and council tax together is just over 900 a month.)

Tell me your stories...

treacle - like the idea of home-made cards but I'm never sure if the time/effort plus the cost of the cardboard/sparkly things to stick on it makes it worthwhile. Then again, I'm not terribly creative and perhaps when I work out how much I spend a year on b'day cards I might change my mind ;-)

BTW, thanks to all of you who've recommended moneysavingexpert.com & the budget planner - it does look excellent

notintheknow - I put away £100 per month into a separate account for car expenses and xmas presents. It has to cover servicing, mot, insurance etc, and all xmas presents

In terms of birthday presents, I pay for these within my normal monthly budget. It forces you to think of something more imaginative/cheaper! Wedding presents - nightmare, but again I suppose being imaginative you'll be able to come up with something cheaper than you might normally have spent. No need to spend loads imo. As for cards, what about ecards?

Maybe you could fork out for this book before your DH gives up work

Lots of lovely, and very easy, handmade card ideas for all occasions.

oyster - that book looks wicked, thank you. I'd envisaged drawing and since I never progressed beyond stick people it didn't seem that appealing but I think I'd actually really enjoy making those sorts of cards...

I put aside money each month for Christmas, have just increased this to allow for the fact that we now have DS. This doesn't just cover pressies, it's for the tree, extra food etc etc.
I also have an account for car expenses, one for things for DS, and one for general longer term savings.
DH and I have £200 each per month to spend on whatever we need, clothes, haircut, food at work, lunch out with mates etc. I need less atm because I'm on mat leave so I'm paying for some bits for DS out of this too.
In addition we have started to put £100 aside each month so that we have money there ready for things like, new suit for DH, new winter coats, boots - ie. more expensive but essential clothing items that we can't cover from our monthly pocket money.

Dividing things up like this really helps me to see where we are and what we can afford.

We've gone down to one salary twice. Once when DH was setting up his company, and once for me to take extended maternity leave. We're financially fine now but being tight is such an established habit now that we haven't gone back.

I think the keys are:

1. Try living the lifestyle before you actually have to. Trying to break the profligate little daily habits like taxis and bottles of good wine when you're suddenly down to one income feels like punishment. If you've been doing it for a few months anyway, it's much less of a shock to the system. It will also give you an idea of whether you're being unrealistic.

1. Get everything in order before you start. Stockpile non-perishables when they're reduced. Going to the supermarket because you've run out of toothpaste always means spending 15 quid anyway, by the time you've picked up this and that on your way through. I'd also suggest selling anything you can on eBay to build up a little slush fund in Paypal for those times when you just need a treat.

1. Get used to planning ahead. The first place I go on Saturday morning is the section of my greengrocer that has all the dented factory second vegetables. I clean that out, work out what we'll be able to make from it, then go to the supermarket for the extra ingredients. Don't ever buy processed food - I started making batches of mini courgette muffins when I realised that Heinz toddler biscuits are about 2 quid for a small box. The muffins cost about 80p for 24 and freeze perfectly.

I forgot the other important thing: plan for the realities of life. Around our way, pizza or Thai delivery for two costs about 25 quid. I know there will be nights when we just want to flop in front of the telly, so when I'm making something like soup or lasagne I make extra and put them in the freezer. All the laziness of takeaway at a pound or two a serve!

Don't spend loads of money on things that are "Hallmark" days..

my best valentine's card was one with heart shapes cut out of leaves from the garden (hundreds of them - must have taken hours).

our best Easter was when we all has to but a mystery Easter gift for £1 of less. my dd's still talk about it 6 years later.

This is all really, really useful. What a great resource mumsnet is. Am just about to start on the Ebay thing ninedragons - I'm struggling to believe that anyone will want what's in our loft but who knows...

Before you ditch the car, do a comparison of its actual costs - which are possibly not particularly high if you use it infrequently so low petrol, and presumably not too awful insurance, esp as its probably third party now rather than comp? - with what it will cost you to do the trips north by train. When we did this, calculating on three trips a year to Scotland, keeping our old banger was the better option.

Odeon and Vue cinemas kids clubs on weekends are great value.....

aha, thanks janin - a potential reprieve for the poor beast

I don't know anything about London but here are some general ideas for saving money on day to day living (similar to other posters)

I buy cards in multi packs - 10 for about £1 and they are quite good quality - look in the cheaper card shops not hallmark.

presents - I buy things throughout the year for friends birthdays and christmas presents if I see something good value so come chrismas only need to buy for dh and ds.

Plan your two weekly menu then do online shop. I find that if you go for discount lines where poss then tesco comes out as cheap as Lidl (my Lidl seems expensive for what it is I think). Look for bogof offers on things you use (but dont buy them if you would not have used them anyway).

Eke out your meat by adding extra veg, beans/tins toms etc.

If you are going to cinema or on day out take your own food with you.

Look at supermarket ranges for low price clothing, specially for the kids.

Price compare before you buy anything above your day to day housekeeping.

Having been on a tight budget now since I was made redundant 3 years ago, you do learn to appreciate little things more.

I have done a spreadsheet (quite anal I know), but I put a whole years worth of budgets on it, due to some bills only happening once a year. It means I never miss anything.

I use Tesco for most of shopping (because like you the cost of petrol to get anywhere else would mean it wasn't a saving).

I get alot of frozen food from Iceland (as it's cheap and IMO good quality), it can also be cooked straight from frozen (as I always forget to defrost).

Get into the habit of planning adhoc shopping at sale time for bargains.

I always have £100 contingency budget for anything not expected.

I also have 2 accounts, the Direct Debit account and the spends account (which doesn't have an overdraft because when it's spent it's spent).

I'd love a savings account but not enough money to put there.

If you could, maybe swap to interest only mortgage while you DH is retraining just to relieve a little of the pressure?

thanks just used that budget sheet great!

My ds makes cards by cutting out pictures of favourite things (animals, toys etc) and then sticking them down and writing (badly!)what the thing is. Our friends much prefer those as more thought has gone into them and they are more personal and inexpensive.
For cheap pressies, the boys make book marks which we laminate or make bead bracelets etc... it really is the thought that counts. I don't know anyone who would be happy for us to get more overdrawn or in debt just to buy a present for them - I know I wouldn't.
Good luck!

For the car, have you thought of using the urban car rental thing instead? (I can't remember the name, but when you rent a car for an hour for £3.95). That means that you could still do shops once a week/fortnightly, using a car, but without the expense of maintenance.

But, if you're taking trips up north, travelling by train can end up being super super expensive (why?! the bastards).

MrsP, like the idea of the spends account with no overdraft, v sensible. We've already got an interest-only but at the mo we pay extra into a savings account and then use it to pay off capital. May be that we have to stop doing that for a while although it does mean we'll still be paying for the house when we're 103 but I guess it's the day to day priorities that count.

applepud - have just started the 2-week menu planning, there've been a few blips and it does take me absolutely ages to work it out and do the Tesco shop but it does make a huge
difference money-wise and we're also eating a much more varied diet.

bleh - urban car scheme, good one.

Slightly off the point but do you find that when you sit down with DPs to discuss budgetry matters an argument often ensues? Maybe not a full-on argument but it always seems to be a bit of a contentious subject - does anyone else find that? And if so, have you found any ways of making money discussions less hostile?