To think PND is not a women's private problem but a political and social one as well

[roseability]

Before the curtain rises on this motherhood performance, you read, study, meditate, share and carefully learn the script. You choose birth underwater or in darkness, a gentle birth breathing the baby out like a holy rite. Then you hold him, draw him to your breast, and of course your baby never leaves you, is in skin-to-skin contact and assured of your love.

You will breastfeed two or three years, do the task properly, create a new radiant creature, a work of art and love and patience.

In all your ways you are consistent, tender, reasonable, liberal, you never say no, are never rejecting, offer all that is fair and sweet.

Then what are these ugly feelings like the slug on the lettuce, the slimy trail of ego, the dog-shit suddenly underneath? Why is your gut twisted, hot anger scalding, thick rage rising like scum on boiling jam, sobs choking like vomit? Why do you want to run away, escape from your child or to wring his neck?

You are grateful to have a partner, home, lilac flowering by the window. Everything's all set for the future. But this hate curdles kindness, snuffs all hope. The pastoral idyll, making babies who shine with trust and a high IQ, your lovely Eden with wing sprouting cherubs in a clean new world is shattered

And you have smashed it. Guilt wraps round like a tired old coat, the sky turns black. And women say, each one in their own prison, her own isolation and despair, "it must all be my fault. I should never have had a child.I don't deserve one...why can't I be happy like other women?"

Sheila Kitzinger

Just read this in her book. Some very interesting issues I thought.

LucyEllensmummy I really wish I could say that going to the gp worked for me. i think there are weeksdays where i'm feeling incredibly depressed and dh and i are constantly rowing about things and others where i'm feeling pretty good. 2 weeks ago was one of those weeks and i finally said to dh "i need help. this isn't me anymore. i'm just numb and i really need to talk to someone". i booked an appointment with my gp that i've been seeing for some time and it was absolutely horrible. i was hoping that i could just be referred to a counselor...

she told me to just put ds into nursery and get a job. she told me that this was my fault because i'm not getting out enough and joining the gym and getting a job is the way to feel better. she was very judgmental after i told her i was going to remain a stay at home mum and said that she put her kids in nursery and they turned out alright.... she also offered to put me on anti-d's but after i told her that i didn't feel drugs were appropriate for me and that i really wanted to talk to someone instead her reply was that she didn't have a magic wand and obviously i wasn't her only patient. i just finally told her that i really wanted to be referred to a counselor and that was the reason that i was there, she flat out told me that i probably wouldn't get in for a good 4 months so my "assignment" was to go to the library, find some things to do during the week and to report back to her. i just left the entire practice. luckily the other surgery in our town took our family in and i'm seeing a different gp in hopes of some help. dh has been nothing but completely supportive and has really helped me out these last few weeks but i'm so afraid of going back to the state i was in. it seems to come and go, does anyone else have this?

mischambers - i have to say that my doctor said that to me to, just because i am bright, she assumed i was depressed because i was a SAHM, that getting a job would be a miracle cure! She did just put me on meds and i had a 12 week wait for counselling. My DP took me to another doctor (although mine was OK, she went on mat leave) and said quite firmly "help her, because if you don't someone is going to get hurt" (i was getting violent with DP and suicidal). I was miraculously seen by a pyschiatrist within two weeks and referred to counselling with a veiw to getting CBT - my counsellor is very good so im sticking with it. Do go back to another practice - i had a horrible experience with a woman doctor once, she told me that i shouldnt be relying on them to help me that i should take responsibility for myself . Now i could, had i wanted to patronised the bitch and given her a very long and detailed explanation on why actually - that is what she is there for, i am ILL FFS!! Would you say that to a diabetic?? There are chemical reasons for my illness and i understand all to well what is happening to me (my PhD is in neurobiology and genetics). She of course didn't know this and just assumed i was another neurotic mother - well, maybe when she had children of her own she would learn more empathy! Grrrr

It is very much the luck of the draw i have to say - but on the whole, the doctors have been OK. Their hands are tied by funding, but if you push, it becomes available. Don't give up - keep going back. See a male doctor even - I once made an appointment for repeat meds and the doctor came out and called me, he was an older, very posh man and i thought - oh, here we go, im going to get the pull yourself together speech - out of all the doctors ive seen for repeat prescriptions he was the only one to ask me how i was and genuinely listen to my answer - i was ok at the time, and he just said for me to take care of myself and not even think of coming off the ADs until i had everthing sorted and my life was calm. I was . The horrible doctor was young and you would think more able to identify with modern stresses - hey ho.

I do think there should be more specialists in PND care, that women should have access too, a PND HV at every surgery - properly qualified and able to understand the irrationalness of it all.

Wannabe, you do make a good point. I think much of the problems are created by expectations. We are expected as mothers to be happy, do everything. We are supposed to fall instantly in love with our perfect little babies (thats not so hard ) bring them home to a house that is a oasis of calm and clean. We are supposed to brush off the sleepless nights like we are superwomen, and our partners will be the perfect fathers, just like that. He goes to work in the morning while we stay at home and tend to the little ones, we will do arts and crafts with the older ones, whilst balancing the younger ones in their baskets - we will cook delicious nutritious meals FROM SCRATCH (its a wonder the baby food companies haven't gone bust!!) for our children and then when our DPs come home we will be found gliding around the kitchen a la Nigella Lawson - smiling insanely as we just pop something wonderful that "ive just thrown together" in the oven with a flick of our shiny locks. Quite frankly, our partners are in awe of us. Oh and then the mummy friends, we must have those - that select group of middle class mummies from baby clinic who we will meet at the local coffee emporium and breast feed our babies en masse and god help anyone who dares to cast a glance in our direction. If you bring a bottle for your baby, expect to be cast out of this particular clique. We discuss the point at which we will return to work and still do all of the above, having "quality time" with our children. Or if you are the earth mother type - how you will stay at home and play with mud all day, still doing all of the above and managing to shine for our DPs when they come home. (this is not an anti man rant - i think our DPs actually realise that its never actually going to be like that) but heaven forfend that we let on to OTHER MOTHERs that we are not like that, that we drag ourselves out of bed each morning, terrified of what the day might bring, dissolving into frustrated tears when you spill the contents of the steriliser all over the worksurface because your eldest child will not get off your case and your newborn is screaming for his/her bottle or booby. That your DP will be lucky if he has ANY dinner, thrown together or otherwise - he will probably have the baby hoist upon him as soon as he walks in the door because you are emotionally exhausted and actually would like to have a cup of tea - you made one at 8am but its cold on the side!

Thats the reality of motherhood - it is the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me, and whilst there are snippets of the uber mummy about my life, much of the time im in a daze - what i am starting to realise is not all of that is down to depression, that is down to being a mother and not being able to admit to not being perfect. It makes me seethe.

PND is a terrible terrible illness that is brushed under the carpet because it is a failing, and the sufferers themselves can't bear to admit to it, so we suffer in silence - don't let the cracks show.

Does it have to be like this - well i guess it does all the while we feel we have so much to prove. Me? I'm past caring, ive left my DP to play shops with DD while i type this - i think he's miffed, i don't care. Im having ME time!! one of the only things about modern motherhood i adhere to - we all must have ME time!!

I just wanted to add something to this, although I'm on my way to bed as it's the other end of the day here....

I was extremely lucky that I happened to be in a mental health project for first time mums at our hospital when I had DS (now 3yrs old).

The psychologist was collecting blood at various points, including 6 weeks after the birth. It was her who convinced me that I had (terrible) PND, that I needed help, and she literally put a prescription through my door and sent my gp a letter. 3 years on I am finally coming off the med.s because I'm pg. again..and very happy but without them, one of us wouldn't be here, I'm convinced.

I know that if you haven't taken anything like ADs before you think you just need to speak to someone/that their scary and inappropriate for you, but I found that by taking them I then felt strong enough/ clear headed enough to fight for what I needed (serious therapy).

I would often get a cab to my appt.s with the therapist as it was the only way I could get there in time (still juggling baby, work, partner's work of course!), and I was a lunatic telling the cab drivers where I was going... why I was seeing a therapist (usual response was "you don't look like you need it luv")... and the NUMBER of guys who started telling me about their wives (or sometimes friends wives, or their sisters) who had never been right since the birth of their first child...

It used to take up the first few minutes of each session as I got so angry that there were all these women out there who were still "not right"/divorced because of it/children seemingly profoundly affected, 3,4,5 years on, one guy was convinced his wife was worse 10 years later... and of course we all assume we're the only bloody ones.

So I was very evangelical, and ended up having on handed some web sites, and phone numbers. These guys were all so worried about their relatives.....

Anyway, annabelle's mummy - I do hope you get the help you need. It IS out there...

I can post some links that might help... if you still think you need them.

Oh, and SK rocks.

J

What is the name of the book that you quote in your OP? I have looked on amazon and there are lots of books by Sheila Kitzinger
.

I can sympathise with all above posts, I have experienced many of those feelings and was also so traumatised by the birth of DS that I don't know if I will be able to have another child. I want one in my heart but I coped so badly with the birth and with the first 10 months of DS's life (he is now 16 months) that I'm scared.

I work fulltime (have to financially, but also I couldn't cope with being a SAHM) as a teacher and get by on adreneline. I constantly feel guilty about not bening a good enough mother ... I'm not like I thought I would be at all. I get frustrated and bored, and feel too tired to make exciting organic meals from scratch. I still have to rock him off to sleep too and he still has a bottle after lunch I keep saying 'I must do better' and on one level i do feel like I need to 'pull myself together' ... on another I'd like proper help.

I'm bumping this because i think its a massively important issue.

Having suffered from PND after all of my DC to a greater or lesser extent, worst and most delayed after my DD, I wouldn't attempt to deny the impact of it, how devestating and life-denying it is, how it can make the most simple things impossible. But where I do take issue is the emphasis on PND rather than in on depression in general. I have had depression at other times too and it is just as terrible. Depression can be triggered by many things.

Emphasising PND alone risks making it seem an issue for women, rather than an issue for everyone. It is a huge issue for so many people. Depression as a whole needs acceptance and understanding.

that is an EXCELLENT point Orm, in fact my counsellor will agree with you and tells me not to think of it in terms of PND as there lies the danger of oversimplifying things. You are exactly right, i think the issue of mental illness needs to be challenged and made less taboo. I am posting on a thread just now where a guy refuses to accept his depression because it is too stigmatised.

I do think that there are probably women who suffer soley PND, and this is clearly chemically biased due to all the hormones and i wonder if they are the ones who respond best to medical intervention such as ADs.(A friend of mine was in a really bad way with PND but she popped her prozac for a few months and was fine after that, able to come off really easily once i suppose her hormones settled etc) However, as you are right in saying, many people suffer with commonal garden depression and it is just as devestating and often more long term.

I guess that because this is a parenting forum though, the emphasis on PND is appropriate and i think it highlights the case of mental health being brushed under the carpet.

But I'm not sure whether it might also be that those that get prompt medication get past it faster/rebalance/whatever faster than those who don't. If your friend, LucyEllen, got the prozac fast and soon was feeling better, she presumably didn't spiral into the gutter of self-loathing described by SK for so long that she no longer knew what she used to be like - does that make sense?

I think that maybe a lot of long term depression after birth might be because the problem hasn't been resolved promptly enough, and therefore becomes more difficult to treat. By the time a few months/years have past, you have "become" the barely coping mother, experienced huge relationship scares etc etc and you can't just sweep those away. Just my pet theory though.

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Hello,

Thanks so much to the OP for starting this thread and for the link to the Sheila Kitzinger website - I'm going to look at it after I've typed this.

Lucyellensmummy - a hv did exactly the same to me! When my dd was about 4 months old I had the pnd questionaire, my score was borderline but she convinced me I was depressed and that she would organise a phone call and a visit. That was in April 2008 and I'm still waiting! My dd is 14 months old now and I've been in denial that there is something wrong. With me its the birth that I can't deal with. I thought I was ok but when she turned 1 I started thinking about the birth and for the last few weeks I've been having flashbacks, nightmares and days when I feel constantly anxious and panicky. I spoke to my dh about it through floods of tears and finally spoke to a (different!) hv. I was in floods of tears again but she was great - she is coming to see me next week to work out exactly what I need - antidepressants, counselling or whatever.

It was such a relief to take the first step in admitting that I think I have a problem so Annabellesmummy - it's not too late, please speak to someone. My dd is 14 months and I'm only just dealing with it.

Lucyellensmummy - that post/description of what we thought it would/should be like made me cry. I'm so glad its not just me who feels like that. Think i'm getting better now but it so hard to admit all is not perfect.

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