...to think that the police force has absolutely NO business whatsoever deciding that someone is 'pure evil'...

[almostblue]

... much less issuing an official statement to the effect?

bad mother - I agree it is that bald a fact.

I think you need a different aibu about whether it's reasonable to call this woman evil or not.

THIS aibu is about the police overstepping the mark with their comments.

I also think, actually, that a woman can be on benefits and have children by more than one man and be a good human being and a good parent. (Obviously KM failed massively at the latter). A lot of the women who have children by different fathers have done so with good intentions, love and care for those children, and cannot be blamed for the fact that the men may have fucked off - or indeed died. And for a single mother of more than one child, it is very very hard to find secure work that enables you to be actually better off than you would be on benefits. (Many jobs that offer flexible hours have no job security and no guarantee of how much money you will get every week: two factors which make remaining on benefits a much safer option).
People who rant about the 'underclass' are always so keen to blame the poor for their own problems when in many cases the individuals are trapped by their circumstances and, actually, by the greed and irresponsibility of many employers.

excellent stick, IMO.

yanbu

is this now their role?

Also given the state of this world I think "pure evil" indicates a fairly limited vocabulary....as if they MUST comment (don't see that they need to) surely this is a country mile from pure evil

but squeakypop, though I agree that much of what you say is true, none of it goes any way to proving she is evil.

And as Pan said, those who genuinely feel no remorse or empathy towards others are considered to be suffering from a psychopathic disorder - a mental illness.

No-one is saying that what she has done isn't terribly - unbelievably - wrong.

Simply that 'evil' is a pointless and in fact meaningless term which only serves to make it less likely that we will prevent the next Karen Matthews from emerging.

NONE of this means that I don't acknowledge that Shannon Matthews hasn't been horrifically abused to a degree from which she will never recover.

Stick - talk about bleeding heart liberals

Show me a woman brought up in the UK who is on benefits raising children alone and I will show you a woman who is either (a) ill or (b) has made poor choices.

no bleeding heart liberals there Quattro. You're being pretty harsh

glad you are a) in good health and b) made good choices in life.

YANBU. Thought it was a very weird thing to say.

Although the only alternative thing he could have said was

'Karen Matthews is incredibly thick.'

Oh give it a rest Onebat. It is getting wearing. We all make choices and we are all responsible for having made those choices.

I've made some dire choices in my time but I was lucky that they were not significant in the overall scheme of things. So far (touch wood).

Has drink been taken?

My point is about people blaming others for the choices they have themselves made. It is a serious point about taking personal responsibility.

All this abusive Hyacinth Bucket stuff - where does that come from? It's not my responsibility that you are dissatisfied with the choices you have made.

Oh Quattro! If only we were all as wise and wonderful as you!

Oh for goodness' sake. Why is taking personal responsibility for choices made such a no-no?

Quattro

I am not dissatisfied with the choices I have made. I am dissatisfied with your nasty characterization of single mothers on benefits (neither of which I am, as if that were relevant).

My point to you on the other thread was that you were wrong (and ill-mannered) to claim that living in an enormous house is more difficult than living in a very small one.

It does not follow that, because I disagree with you, I have made poor choices; or that I blame you for the (excellent) choices I made; or that I wish I had made yours.

I can assure you that my objection to you on this thread is based purely on your responses to this thread.

all of us make 'poor choices' at some time or other. Some of us are lucky that there are no lasting consequences - others are not so lucky. You cannot blame someone for making poor choices because there is not a person alive who does not fall into that category. Glass houses and all that.

Evil

Sounds like Karen Matthews to me...even police are allowed an opinion!

I agree there are/have been people more deserving of the term 'evil'.

I also agree that its use in this statement was ill-advised.

However, I also thought it showed the emotional imapact of the case on someone who has, presumably, been at the heart of the case, and is aware of many more details than have been reported.

Therefore, although I may think "ooof, bit over the top," I can empathise with how the police involved may have felt.

With regard to the making poor choices comments that have come up, there is a world of difference between choosing a feckless man; managing money badly or making poor job choices (for a few examples) and deciding to drug and hide your child in the hope of financial gain.

'Poor life choices' doesn't begin to cover it.

They are right though arnt they? Do you thik the police officer who carried SM out of that bed thought 'oh, that was a kind, loving person to do this'? No, he probably didnt.
So what that the police said it. She is evil.

Do you think it is ok for judges to say that people are evil, or should that not be allowed too?

I dont particularly like the term evil...
But bizarrely this thread has turned into excuses for Karen Mathews!
There are no excuses IMO - plenty of women with borderline low IQ manage to care for their children with a modicum of care and respect, likewise single parents (me for eg), likewise mothers on benefits, likewise women from a poor upbringing etc etc...
I think the police are in fact entitled to an opinion far more than we are - and TBH I think the main culprits here are the bloody tabloids!

The argument about feckless single mothers is entirely separate from the Karen Matthews one. The thread has bcm rather confusing, I agree.

I didn't say she was evil yet alone attempt to prove it, bat.

Okay squeaky - but your post is a bit confusing, to me anyway. You seem to be saying 'yes she is but she needs society's help'.. though I am clearly misreading.

I think, in the end, that 'evil' implies two things.

Firstly, that this person's capacity to make a moral choice has not been influenced by circumstance to any degree.

Secondly, that there can be no possibility of change or redemption.

Both these go against the teaching of the Christian Church.

I like what your Telegaph priest said: "wicked" is a good word to describe those who carry out dreadful acts which others, in the same situation, do not make.

At the same time it does not absolutely deny the possibility that the person has a moral sense which has been warped by circumstance; nor does it shut out the possibility of repentance and redemption.

It seems to me that those two ideas are fundamental to an idea of "human-ness" that most of us agree on. And one of the reasons that I dislike the term 'evil' is that it removes the humanity of a person. At which point it becomes far easier for us to become inhuman in our treatment of them.