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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think cyclists shouldn't think themselves above the law ?

135 replies

AmIWhatAndWhy · 26/11/2008 17:38

DP has just called me, he left work and was crossing when a cyclist sailed through the lights and missed hitting him by inches.

The same has happened to me countless times, sometimes when with the DC. Why do they think it's okay to sail over pedestrian crossings?

OP posts:
ManIFeelLikeAWoman · 30/11/2008 12:35

Jesus.

"Why move to canada or holland for cycling when you say it is all a red herring anyhow and building cyle paths is a red herring."

LEARN TO READ.

I said that building cycle paths was a red herring in respect of turning Britain into some sort of Lazytown fitness utopia. It would be an excellent thing for existing cyclists, drivers and pedestrians alike but it would not "be of immense benefit to the nation" in the ways suggested by the fantasist who posted that particular sprinkling of moondust.

Jesus II.

"It is a sad attitude to be so negative about cycling in a safe and proper way and not breaking the law - the building of more cycle paths would create this enviroment. Yet you are against this."

LEARN TO READ.

Not once have I criticised cyclists who cycle "in a safe and proper way and not breaking the law". I criticise, and will continue to criticise, cretins who are over the age of 11 and ride bicycles on pavements with no specified cyclist right of way. And I am especially against them when they try to justify it with a load of old cock. Nor am I against the building of more cycle paths. I am against people designating their own cycle paths arbitrarily, without any legal right to do so, and without warning the existing users of that space, ie pedestrians.

Jesus III.

"Pedestrians though are fine - is that because you are one?"

Yes, I am one. More importantly, I am a law-abiding one. One of the many things I do not do is decide that I am special and different and walk down the middle of the road because the pavement is congested. And most pedestrians are the same. If you know any that aren't, then I am with you in criticising them.

Jesus IV.

"They [boy racers] are not representative of the vast majority of people who cycle, drive, walk everywhere. To assume so is reductionist and makes your whole argument fallacious."

LEARN TO READ.

Nowhere do I make any such assumption or even hint at it. It is essential in a mature society, especially one sharing a very small space as is Britain's case, that all road users - cyclists, drivers, pedestrians - obey the law. It is clear that most of them do. It is also essential that those who do not obey the law should be castigated and/or punished by society in the interests of that majority. My argument is that the minority of cyclists who do think they are above the law should not be exempt from this. Perhaps it is a sad modern paradox, but the fact remains that "I was scared" may form part of a legitimate defence in a murder trial, but not in the case of a fat self-important puffy red-faced prick in lycra cycling along pavements in London. Get on the road, or get off the bike.

Therefore, as I do not make any such assumption, it is not "reductionist" and does not make my argument "fallacious".

Jesus V.

"In Canada, pedestrians also have the right of way anywhere. You hit a pedestrian with your car and its your fault even if they were jay-walking. The same applies to cars hitting cyclists. The logic being that you are more likely to pay attention while inside 1 tonne of metal doing 30 m/p/h if you are personally responsible for the safety of others."

That is one of the silliest bloody laws I have ever heard. "The logic" you mention is not any sort of logic and is, besides, demonstrably untrue in its practical applications, or else HGV, bus and coach drivers would be the safest drivers on the road. Now, again, I am not tarring all these people with the same brush, but they have accidents just like ordinary drivers, and at least some of the time it is their fault.

If something is your fault it is your fault, whether you are in a car, on a bike, on foot or on a space hopper. Obviously you will normally come off worse if you are outside the big bit of metal than if you are inside the big bit of metal - but genuine "logic" would therefore dictate that YOU, as the potential loser in the exchange, should be the more vigilant party.

Jesus VI.

No one's said it yet, but some buffoon probably will, so to pre-empt them - yes, I am aware that children are a special case in this and agree that, as far as is reasonable, they should be exempt from much of this, in just the same way that they are exempt or partially exempt from many other laws until they reach the age of reason.

Sorry for the rant. It is wearying enough arguing with bleaters who want society to lift the burden of responsibility from their frail, tired little shoulders and give them the emotional equivalent of a great big hug in a mug. It's worse when they don't bother to read what you've actually said.

Or is it nearer the truth to say that the two quoted posters deliberately misconstrued what I said because it made me easier to argue with and discredit than if you stuck to my actual - and clearly stated - views? Oh, for shame!

Ivykaty44 · 30/11/2008 13:28

Jesus dont you go on..................

Ivykaty44 · 30/11/2008 13:36

I said that building cycle paths was a red herring in respect of turning Britain into some sort of Lazytown fitness utopia

I call that negative, then you actaully state in the paragraph undernieth you dont ever say you are negative about cycling

Try reading your own post.

Fine you are negative, there will always be people that are. I dont need to misconstrude what you say.

Tortington · 30/11/2008 14:45

MIFLAW, good post. its clear that some posters willfully misconstrude.

IN a family of 5, we have 4 cyclists. I still stand my my first point. that the cycling proficiency at age 8 is not comprehensive enough.

not sure ivykaty has a point other than to be rude.

ManIFeelLikeAWoman · 30/11/2008 19:21

Ivykaty

I really don't know where to start with people like you.

is that really the best you've got? You've pulled out all your big guns, come up with excellent (because not rooted in any facts) arguments, and simply by referring to things I've already posted right here on this site (hence "going on" - that tends to happen when you are forced to repeat yourself) I knock them all down. And your best comeback, your big punch, is "oh, you're negative"?

So what if I'm negative? The thread isn't called, "happy people aboard the sunny days coach", it's about whether cyclists should be exempt from British law. I think they shouldn't and I've stated nice and clear why I think that. Even if I hated cyclists and cycling (which I don't) that still wouldn't be the same as condemning them for things they haven't done. I'm condemnig law-breaking cyclists only for things they HAVE done.

If that last contribution really does represent your best shot at a reasoned, fact-based argument, maybe start off more gently with an easier topic.

nooka · 30/11/2008 21:53

I don't see anyone arguing that cyclists should be above the law. I think the thread has moved on, as is fairly normal for MN. There is plenty of evidence that making cycling easier and driving harder increases the number of cyclists. You just have to look at London post the congestion charge to see that (and there are published statistics too). If more people cycle rather than drive then they will become fitter. That's pretty obvious too. Countries that have invested in cycle paths have more people who regularly cycle. Now of course there are many reasons why people are overweight and unfit, but introducing regular exercise into your life is one of the best ways to change your lifestyle.

It would be better if everyone obeyed all the rules. Yes. It would be good if all road users (and probably pedestrians too) were regularly tested, updated their skills and knowledge and learnt about hazard avoidance. It would also be better if everyone were more tolerant and less obsessed with getting where they want to go faster and faster.

Pedestrians regularly ignore the rules too. They walk in the road when the pavement is crowded, they cross at places without designated crossings, and in busy places such as Oxford Street, they expect cars to stop for them regardless of whether the lights are red or green.

The UK would do well to reconsider many of it's roads and junctions for the safety of all.

Oh, and HGV, bus and coach drivers are generally more skilled than ordinary drivers. They have to pass additional more difficult theory and practical tests (the practical lasting an hour and a half) and take a medical too. There are also appraisal schemes, which many employers of HGV drivers participate in.

The fact is that more people are killed in cars or by cars than any other mode of transport.

prettybird · 30/11/2008 22:16

Good post Nooka

ManIFeelLikeAWoman · 30/11/2008 22:41

I agree - good post, nooka.

I also completely agree that cycling should be encouraged, for all sorts of reasons, and that this would probably improve the quality of life for all of us.

I even agree with the point about the HGV and bus drivers being more competent.

And, of course, cars kill more people than any other form of transport.

But then, I haven't contradicted any of that. A lot of people seem to think I have, but I haven't.

I do not think that other people's (eg car drivers) bad or dangerous behaviour justifies more of the same, for cyclists or anyone else.

Nor do I think that I should be asked to condone, tolerate, sympathise with or work around others' illegal or selfish behaviour just because a third party or group is in turn making their lives hard.

I don't think that's a radical position to take, really. Some people apparently do. Ho hum.

Tortington · 30/11/2008 23:13

of course there are more cars than any other mode of transport - i wonder whether statistically considering the number of car users to accidents whether this assertion would stand - IYKWIM - like i would hazzard a guess that percentage wise, considering the amount of road users, that there are mostly good ones.

i think hills have something to do with it too. oop north where it was much hilly uo steep down ...up steep down. much less cyclists ( in towns) that down here where its relatively flat.

i am sure there are lots of indicators and statistics which could suggest one thing or another. in my town, cyclists are banned on penalty of death for riding through the town centre.

the cycle path which once was proudly centre along the prom is no more. and cyclists are forbidden on pain of death.

there are a few cycle paths, but i dont think thats the reason why so many school children use their bikes to get to school, i think its becuase public transport is wank.

nooka · 01/12/2008 18:53

Well the chances of getting into a car accident outweigh those of all public transport put together, and there are a lot of people getting buses and trains. I wanted to find some relative stats (ie risk per mile travelled/journey taken) but haven't found so far (and have stopped looking, because, I remind myself I have other things to do too )

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