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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think this level of dumbing down has to be a joke?

57 replies

mayorquimby · 03/11/2008 14:01

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7705922.stm

in a nut shell, a number of local councils want to ban their staff from using latin terms because it might confuse people.
Now i'm not talking about quoting the republic but simple terms like "vice versa" "QED" or the abbreviation "e.g.".
i mean FFS surely this is just pandering to morons.

OP posts:

DaddyJ · 03/11/2008 14:02

O tempora o morons!

TheArmadillo · 03/11/2008 14:07

you would not believe what confuses people.

Honestly.

There are many out there who lack even basic skills. Who are not even functionally literate.

Councils need to make their services accessible to everyone. Many find their documents/letters etc hard enough to understand as it is.

They have to balance it with the legal stuff they have to put in and how letters/notifications have to be put in a certain way.

Well done you for understanding them

many can't.

Original poster

mayorquimby · 03/11/2008 14:12

ok fair enough it might seem insensitive but it just seems ridiculous and it must be some indictment of the education system. surely as this stage these words/phrases are a part of the english language. i mean there must be lots of words that these same people don't understand that are english/more modern but you don't ban them from use simply because they are polysyllabic.

OP posts:

rebelmum1 · 03/11/2008 14:14

Too much power, too many bureaucrats! Sack them and give me my tax back please!

rebelmum1 · 03/11/2008 14:15

Seriously, do we really have to pay for these morons?

TotalChaos · 03/11/2008 14:16

when they rewrote the civil procedure rules for civil courts several year back, one of the aims was to get rid of latin terms. so it's not just councils that are doing this! It's a shame where the latin term expresses things far more neatly than the new term, but I think plain english should be used whereever possible, for the reasons state by Armadillo.

rebelmum1 · 03/11/2008 14:16

How can they be thinking about this and the cost and man/woman/animal/vegetable power of implementing this when there is a financial crisis?

Callisto · 03/11/2008 14:17

Agree with MayorQuimby - why is it all about catering for the lowest common denominator? It becomes self-perpetuating and the nation just gets more and more stupid.

TheArmadillo · 03/11/2008 14:17

I understand that, and if people were trying to stop their use altogether I would understand.

But one of the most common reasons people visit their council is because they don't understand the correspondance that has been sent. There are legal standards that cover what has to be put in and the way it is phrased and unfortunately councils can't change that. But what many try to do is make the rest as simple as possible so it does it's job in communicating what people need to know.

It's primary function is as a method of communication - therefore it does need to be understood by all, even those that you refer to as 'morons'.

With councils you don't have a choice in who you deal with, or selecting what kind of customers you like by only appealing to them. You have to cover all bases.

I feel the anger would be better directed at the govt and education system that so many don't know these, rather than the council who are having to deal with the situation as it is.

rebelmum1 · 03/11/2008 14:17

I don't agree latin is part of our linguistic heritage, they should still be teaching it not eradicating it.

Callisto · 03/11/2008 14:19

Also agree with Rebel - sack the bureaucrats and put the money saved into teaching basic levels of literacy.

rebelmum1 · 03/11/2008 14:19

Is there a single example of someone not undertstanding a smattering of latin that was to their detriment? I could understand it if it was roadsigns we were talking about ..

TheArmadillo · 03/11/2008 14:20

rebelmum - I assume the idea is to save costs, by reducing the amount of money spent on providing services that explain to people what these terms mean.

You can't just send something and say 'tough shit if you don't understand'.

Some do, I know, but it's not exactly good practice.

And what about those who need this - many of them are spending their taxes on this as well. How many of them could complain about spending their taxes on the council that sends stuff they can't even understand.

Callisto · 03/11/2008 14:21

I can see where you're coming from Armadillo, but surely it is relatively easy to explain the meaning of 'per se' for eg? Especially when it is read in context?

rebelmum1 · 03/11/2008 14:23

What services are there explaining what a smattering of latin means? I bet there isn't a single person who has requested an explanation..

rebelmum1 · 03/11/2008 14:24

If the don't get what eg means then I reckon they wont get the rest of the document..

KatieDD · 03/11/2008 14:25

Somebody I know who works at the Inland Revenue told me that the average reading age of somebody claiming tax credits is 7 year old.
When you put it into that contex you can see why everything has to be as clear as possible in government departments because in law ignorance is not a defence and yet clearly for some it would be.

Original poster

mayorquimby · 03/11/2008 14:25

"It's primary function is as a method of communication - therefore it does need to be understood by all, even those that you refer to as 'morons'."

and that's fair enough.but how could anyone who is of an age to be dealing with the council have made it through life without understanding the term "vice versa" as i said this isn't complex or even semi-complex terms that i could understand passing people by "actus reus" or "mens rea" but simple terms that have been a part of the english language for a long time now.it just makes the movie "idiocracy" look like a prophecy rather than a comedy as we constantly dumb things down to the lowest common denominator and it seems to perpetuate itself.

and i fully reserve the right to refer to anyone as a moron who would make the following mistake. "A Campaign spokesman said the ban might stop people confusing the Latin abbreviation e.g. with the word "egg". "

OP posts:

Cupofteaplease · 03/11/2008 14:26

I read the article and had to laugh...

It will prevent people possibly confusing e.g. with 'egg'... now I'm sorry but, has this EVER happened? To anyone? And if it has, would they not be too embarrassed to admit it?!

Callisto · 03/11/2008 14:26

Ha, meant 'per se' for example, not 'per se' or 'eg'. .

Now can you see how confusing it gets?

rebelmum1 · 03/11/2008 14:27

Why would you be asked to give an egg?

rebelmum1 · 03/11/2008 14:28

Have they been deluged with eggs at the council office?

rebelmum1 · 03/11/2008 14:28

lol

Callisto · 03/11/2008 14:28

Maybe they think it is the polite version of giving a fuck?

bronze · 03/11/2008 14:29

Are they going to stop using words such as magistrate and civilian etc then as they come from the Latin. If you're going to follow it to a logical conclusion it should be words obtained from other languages that should be banned. How far back are they going to go? Should we all just start talking German or Anglos Saxon then.
Enggish is a language that borrows and always has been. If simple phrases such as vice versa are going to be too much for some people then plenty of other basic phrases will trouble them too.

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