Am I being unreasonable to complain about dd primary school new lining up policy.

[rosysslave]

My dd's primary school have introduced a new policy of making the children line up 10 mins early after lunch and 5 mins early after morning break (this is a punishment/new regime because they can't line up quietly). They then have to sit there, in a line, completely silent, for 10 minutes, being screamed at by the hitlerish lunchtime staff if they make any noise, till the teachers come and get them. This is applied to all ages from 6 up. I think this is totally ridiculous, children that age (primary age) cant be totally silent, en masse, for any length of time and, in my opinion, shouldn't be made to stand in a line for any longer than necessary, specially not at playtime. It feels like, to me, just inadequate people being able to bully small children for no good reason, I hate listening to the children being screamed at and feel I should say something but.....perhaps I am wrong and it is not unreasonable to expect them to line up silently. What do people think?

If their lunchtimes are effectively being reduced by ten minutes and playtimes have been cut short too I would be very concerned.

IMO they are expecting far too much from young children who they are not allowing to get out and play.

I think first course of action should be establishing if these actions are short term or for the forseeable future.

If they are for any more than a week I would be wanting to speak to the head / governors / maybe "enlightening" a few others parents as to what is actualy happening, so you can work as a group to suggest changes.

IMHO 10mins is an unreasonable length of time with nothing else happening - not like assembly etc where their attention would be directed elsewhere

Rebelmum, why should they have to spend 10 mins of their lunchtime sitting silently, that is an incredibly long time to a 6 year old, even supernanny only advocates 1 min for every year of age and that is for a one off punishment!

Doris you are right, I must find out how long this is supposed to be for. Though I think I have to say how worried I am about the way they are shouted at, and that has been going on for as long as I have been taking dd home for lunch (forget how long but at least 10 months)

I don't think it's a big deal. I don't like the screaming. My friend used to sent away for whole days of total silence at her convent school, that's abusive and oppressive but 10 mins isn't going to harm them short term. I think it's a pretty flawed approach and would only make them wait till they achieved silence but don't think it's doing them harm.

But I don't understand why they should have to sit still for 10 mins unnecessarily, I can understand that they need to be relatively calm going back into class and that they have to be able to hear instructions given and they have to stop and line up when told to and that some children will be punished for not doing what they're told but this seems unfair and just to make things easier for the lunchtime support (I use the word loosely here) hitlers ( I really don't want to offend the lovely hardworking lunchtime staff out there who do a great job ). I do think though that some of the children feel a deep sense of injustice and for the really challenging children it does not make a blind bit of difference in behaivour

And it is actually self perpetuating because the rowdy children are unable to be quiet so the whole thing just goes on and on, so is obviously not working from a behaviour control point of view anyway.

"hitlerish lunchtime staff"
do they then torture the children.
bizare

They don't physically touch them of course, but they are definitely what I would consider verbally abusive.

I think that they do need to learn to line up quietly and sensibly as they would have to do this for fire drill, and believe me, it is bloody difficult to hear people answering their names when you call them out if everyone else is talking. You can imagine the consequences if someone was marked as absent and they were there. Yes, we do head counts as well, but even so.

If it's a temporary measure til half term, then I'd go with it...any longer, no.

Yes I agree that is important, they have to be able to be quiet when needed. I think they can line up quietly, after a fashion, temporarily, but having to wait quietly for longer than 5 mins for teachers who don't get down on time becaomes difficult. (This really isn't a rant about the teachers who are almost all totally fab and very under appreciated at this hardcore inner city primary, and I am sure really do need their breaks, but some of them do keep the children waiting)

I can assure you that trying to keep children quiet for ten minutes at the end of lunchtime is not going to make things easier for the supervisors! Getting them to line up quietly for two minutes while they wait for other classes to go inside is hard enough; it's a bit like herding cats. You get one end of the line behaving, and the other end gets bored and starts kicking off and so on and so on. I realise I can only speak for myself, but having to keep the children quiet and behaving in line for ten minutes would be the most frustrating part of my shift (and there are lots of those). We would far rather keep them playing for longer and have them lining up for as short a time as possible.

I think the first thing you need to do is ascertain why the staff are having to do this. Is it for a limited time to try and teach them how to behave in line, is it a short-term thing as a sort of punishment because they haven't been behaving well, is it a long-term thing. Ask why it's being done, and what they are aiming to achieve with it before you complain; there may be something going on which they are addressing with this.

But I do think you need to speak to the school about the way some of the supervisors are talking to the children. The screaming is completely unacceptable - sometimes voices need to be raised and sometimes we need to be quite stern with certain children, but screaming at the children is something to raise your concerns about.

I guess this is one of the reasons why I asked the question WWB, it just seems that getting them to sit down in a line means they are in one place sitting down where they need to be and not running around screaming would make them easier to control, I think this is why they made them sit down because I take your point, a line of children will definitely become rowdy very quickly.

Sounds a bit OTT. Although kids do need to learn a bit more discipline and manners these days (at the risk sounding like an old granny!)

They should make it 1-2 minute max, plus no shouting at them - it's not acceptable to verbally abuse them. Anyway, if the time was more achievable for the kids, they wouldn't have to.

Sounds a bit OTT. Although kids do need to learn a bit more discipline and manners these days (at the risk sounding like an old granny!)

They should make it 1-2 minute max, plus no shouting at them - it's not acceptable to verbally abuse them. Anyway, if the time was more achievable for the kids, they wouldn't have to.

Just had a thought if the behaviour ( of the staff) is really unacceptable... do you have a videophone to take a "snapshot" of the problems to the head? As otherwise it may develop into a accustation/ denial prcess with nil changed at the end ....Just a thought!

This does seem unreasonable and draconian to me too, and I would be discussing this with the Head at the earliest opportunity.

It sounds like the school has some unrealistic expectations of the children - perfection that they won't ever be able to live up to as a whole, because however good the majority are, there will always be some disruptive, noisy kids - who may well have behavioural problems that need proper help, rather than repression and punishment of the entire school.

You might suggest an alternative approach to the Head - a Lunchtime Behaviour award, where the classes who line up quietly (not silently - these are kids - let's be realistic) and behave nicely get a class star, and those classes with - say - 3 or more stars at the end of the week will get extra Golden Time, and each half term, the class/es with the most stars will get some special class certificate that can be displayed in the main entrance hall. Stars could be removed for conspicuously bad behaviour by the class.

Imo, children respond better to positive reinforcment or a combination of a single punishment followed by longer term positive reinforcement techniques than to an entirely negative technique such as your school is using.

Spoke to assistant head who said that policy would continue indefinitely until behaviour improved. As I am a complete wuss, I completely caved and muttered about how I would be interested to see what happens! I did ask how long she thought it would take before things improved and she said a week so will try and work on my argument and talk to the head then. I did mention that I had been v disturbed about how the children were shouted at for some time and did they think this new policy would improve that (I can be very masterful when I want!) but it wasn't a very good moment and I think it would be better to take this up again with the head at a more appropriate, quieter time (will also maybe video it-good idea, though don't want to make things difficult for my dd if spotted!) . Thanks for all your comments.

YABU

"it is not unreasonable to expect them to line up silently."
Absolutely not - This is well within their capability, even at 6.

I am not in favour of screeching teachers, but completely in favour of silent line-ups and punishment if this cannot be achieved. Basic discipline to me. It is hardly torture...

only read op, I suspect this is only for a short period of time - maybe one week - to get them back into line. And I susp[ect there have been repeated warnings about losing break time. But ask the head.

ah, seen your recent post.

Good lines is a sign of good discipline throughout the school. 10 minutes does sound a very long time but maybe one week will make a difference.

"children that age (primary age) cant be totally silent, en masse, for any length of time"

Yes, they can, and do! Schools invest a lot of time and energy getting silence at carpet time and in lines, and if you complain you will sound like a loon and an overbearing parent!

It's a temporary measure...they have the playtime before tobe noisy and lively - they DO have t learn to be quiet without endless exhortation, otherwise teachers voices would be permanently hoarse and nothing would ever get done.

I think that it is unreasonable not to set a limit on this punishment, and I DO think it is unreasonable to expect such a large number of children ALL to be silent for 10 minutes!! There's bound to be one who makes a noise at some point in the time.

Yes, schools and teachers do get near silence/quiet in class - but that's a group of 30 children max - not an entire school!! And I think there is a big difference between quiet and silent as far as achievability with young children is concerned.

I have volunteered in my ds's primary school, working in a class one year, and another year reading with individual children, and I can assure you that no school is ever entirely silent, even when intensive teaching is going on - there's a quiet hum or murmur that accompanies the work - questions being asked and answered, discussions taking place between teacher and pupils, pupils cooperating on their work etc etc. IMO, that's a sign of a healthy school. You don't want so much noise that teachers can't teach and children can't learn, but utter silence would not be productive either, as it would suggest that children could not ask questions, and that the teaching was an entirely one-way, non-collaberative process.

If they are interpreting any break of the silence as bad behaviour, then common sense says that this punishment will be going on forever, because sure as eggs is eggs there will be one child who makes a noise.

And obtaining silence by ranting at the children? Do they want the children scared/cowed into silence?

I think its mad, complete waste of time and effort.The children dont line up at our school after break and lunch, the teacher/dinner supervisor tells a few children it is time to go in, the others follow. Makes for a very relaxed end of play time. I dont miss all the linng up, arguing about who was where in the line, pushing, shoving, talking, adults trying to control the lines, awful. I would complain.