to think it is rude to persistently refer to God/Allah/etc. as an "imaginary friend"

[AtheneNoctua]

even after asked not to by several posters who have stated they found it offensive.

I didn't say they aren't opposed to it. I said it was not the Church's aim to make it illegal. I'm not pretending they all just decided to turn up with a placard.

I think Laurie answered your question pretty well as I would have done, the same options are open to anyone who disagrees with a stated policy of a group to which they belong.

Just because Tony Blair thinks God told him to declare war on Iraq doesn't mean God did. As I previously said, not all Christians have Henry VIII delusions. Blair does.

yes fm but they are not running schools etc the influence of the church (cofe catholic whatever) is not benign in this country and I believe there should be complete seperation

as I've said I have no problem with democratic processes but I am not sure you can separate the political behaviour of the 'official' church and it's members who are organised by them

Noona, my faith caused me to believe, when I believed I was able to back up my faith with the empirical knowlege which I acquired. I now have, a faith which is based on knowlege and not second hand or read in a book but that which I have experienced and seen with my own eyes. Yes you were right when you said that faith can be backed up with empirical knowlege and I know this because it happened to me.

empirical knowledge requires evidence and replication you cannot have that in relation to religion

there is a systematic review looking at prayer here and as you can see one small study showed a positive influence but in the other studies the people prayed for actually died more

that is the sort of evidence that is empirical

I have resisted the abortion discussion but here goes, as I understand the law at present all abortion is illegal in this country unless two doctors agree that it would be detrimental to the health/ mental wellbeing of the woman concerned if she were to continue with the pregnancy. The state does not advocate abortion on demand.

twinie no one has asked for abortion on demand but I think you will find the catholic church oppose it completely and the cofe mostly

I know what the law of the land says thanks

Ah. I think you have to allow for that distinction, or you are essentially saying that people's views should be discounted because of their religious affiliation. Which is actually an opinion I have come across disturbingly often and which makes me . Because it is wrong to think that individuals blindly accept all church teachings without giving it all some pretty serious thought. Even if they do appear to simply toe the party line.

I know what empirical knowlege is and I did not use the term without meaning. It is possible, I know it is because I have experienced it.

Sooo.... anything interesting happen while I was out?

Seriously twinny? I would be interested to know what it was. Even the Vatican struggles with the old empirical evidence.

Agree with all that Twig and Pruners said.

And as for the going to hell stuff - if you'd seen some of the leaflets pushed through my door over the last week, you'd be shocked quite frankly. It's like the local God-fearing community are on a mission to press-gang or scare folk into joining them. Nothing for over a year, and then suddenly.....4 in a week

seriously madonna, its not hard to believe what you have seen and experienced with your own eyes. The hard part for me was having the faith to believe.

Actually, you often have to be very sceptical about what you see with your own eyes. If you had to have the faith to believe...

Empirical evidence can include personal sensory experience. So St Paul could claim that he had empirical evidence on which to base his faith. Others might wonder about epilepsy or some other natural cause. The trouble with personal experiences of god is that they are only empirical to the person experiencing them. To an outsider they might look like something quite else, and a more "rational" explanation sought.

fm point taken but there is that little niggle in my mind that individuals haven't actually thought about it that deeply

this is influenced I admit by my working life which has partly been spent working with families who have to decide what to do in the face of severe fetal abnormality this obviously influences my views on abortion and I think if some of the opposers actually had experience of this they would not be so quick to demand change

but that is off topic really

nooka empirical evidence in the field in which I work would not include personal experience it would have to be experiments under controlled conditions

Ah, but anyone can not think deeply about the issues can't they? It's not restricted to the religious.

no fm and I didn't say it was but I would hope that people going on a demo and opposing legislation would have informed themselves of all the facts not just the ones peddled from the pulpit and then made up their minds ime of working in the field and reading around the subject a lot most don't

God gets an extra vote.

'Well... the people are divided on this issue, but the church is all for it' kind of thing.

That's not the same as people forming a pressure group since the church maintains that an outside force backs their argument.

No not unreasonable athene....but then we have already had this discussion on the thread in question!

'imaginary friend' is belittling and patronising. She also called anyone with religious beliefs of any kid 'stupid' 'witless' and 'peddling crap', ironically, as part of her supposedly anti-discrimination stance. Nothing bigoted there then.Nothing discriminatory....

any kind

I really don't think you can make that generalisation, unless of course you have canvassed every single person on a demo about abortion as to their motivation and influences. I do think it is flawed to say (as you seem to be suggesting) that religious views are didactically accepted by their adherents and haven't been given any thought whatsoever, whereas everyone who is an atheist has subjected their stance to rigorous scrutiny, because that is balls. Some have, on both sides. Some haven't.

I know plenty of people who don't believe in God because they were taught not to by their parents. Some have subsequently scrutinised and re-exmained that teaching, others haven't.

This started out as a discussion about insulting people's religious beliefs and has now become a discussion on the Church's political influence.

I have no strong feelings that the Church needs representation in the House of Lords, the HoL is pretty much a mess and not much improved on the old version, but the presence of bishops is a historical anomoly which will no doubt be addressed. I don't know how many bishops do sit in the House now but can't imagine it can be more than a dozen or so. Given that the House of Lords cannot prevent the passage of legislation (thanks to the Parliament Act) and can only propose leglisation, having no power to passs it without the consent of the Commons, the presence of 12 bishops amongst such a toothless crowd doesn't concern me. It certainly isn't central to my religious or political views that they remain there though.

I'm all for separation of church and state.

But beyond that, what could you reasonably do?

andiem I was looking at the philosophical definition of empirical, not the scientific one. Granted the later is more commonly used now.

Here's a thought. Some children do have an imaginary friend. I see no way from the outside to distinguish between that and belief in god, but maybe I have it reversed. Perhaps all imaginary friends are gods.

In that case instead of hoping they will grow out of it you should be writing down whatever the child says the imaginary friend did and looking to learn from it. To do otherwise would be to belittle their beliefs.
Perhaps the insistence that the child shares her cake with her 'friend' is a parable about feeding the world and so on.

Unless any believers want to say "oh well now you're being silly. Of course that's just them imagining it"