To be extremely annoyed with this childminder?

[MissClavel]

Long time lurker, occasional poster here, desperate for some perspective. We live in France, but are moving back to the UK this summer after 5 years.

DD has been with a childminder for a year, and it hasn't been perfect (CM smokes, has big dog, and various other niggles), but CM adores DD and DD has been happy there so I've let a few things pass as it didn't seem worth making a fuss. DD is the first child she's looked after, and CM herself admits that she's become inappropriately attached, so I'm glad that circumstances are making us leave her, tbh. (much talk of DD being 'my baby' etc)

So, yesterday was their last day together, and out comes the final bill. For a massive 665 euros (normally I pay around 400 a month for 4 days and 500 a month for 5 days - this was the July bill when she's looked after her for 2 days in total).

This, it turns out, is CM's holiday pay. In contract, she's entitled to 5 weeks per year. Together, we wrote on the contract that she'd take a week at Christmas, a week at Easter, and 3 weeks in the summer. I don't have a problem at all with paying her for the 3 summer weeks, but she's claiming all 5. DD hasn't been to her at all in school hols (as we have older children) though I've still paid, so she's had much more than a week's paid holiday at Christmas and Easter. But it turns out that, on the paperwork, she's consistently put down 0 days holiday every month, and I, not realising at all that this was what she was doing, have signed it off.

So on paper, I do owe her for 5 weeks. She is absolutely not backing down and being very passive aggressive about it, and if it went to court she would win. Also, when we gave her notice, 6 weeks ago, we told her in person, she said 'We're supposed to do this in writing, but that's fine, you've told me, I know', so I didn't, but she's now saying that because we didn't do a letter, she could charge us an extra 300 euros

I'm feeling that I've been pretty stupid about this, but am not sure whether just to pay up, since she has the letter of the law on her side. It's stopping me sleeping at night and leaves a v bad taste, esp as she's so incredibly fond of dd. We are very short of cash indeed and the extra holiday pay will hugely impact on us .

DH wants to go over on Monday, give her a cheque for 3 weeks, and leave the country a few weeks later. I'm thinking we should just pay up and write it off. WWYD?

MissClavel - do you mean 4 days a week at 400 euros? If it is 100 euros a day it she is very expensive! Anyway, I think you should just put it down to experience especially as she would charge you an extra 300 euros if she got angry. It is deeply unfair but leave with your dignity intact and lesson learnt

ring ncma 0845 880 0044 I know different country but they should be able to help from my ncma handbook it appears she is charging you pro rata so can only take seven twelfths of holiday so 14 days as opposed to 25 days holiday but is confusing also are you due a refund of deposit/month in advance?

I agree with busymum, surely her holiday is allocated pro rata?

Thank you everyone. Yes, it is allocated pro rata, and she's only had DD since October, but she is apparently entitled to 2 days hols per month worked (she initially tried for 2.5 but I managed to pull her up on that at least - also she tried to give herself a full month's holiday pay for July, despite working only 2 days).

NicMac - no, I wasn't very clear, it's 400 a month for a 4 day week, 500 for 5 days, partly state-subsidised. I think you're probably right about putting it down to experience.

And justabout: I think blustering about ruining her reputation is a great tactic, as well as actually doing it as far as I can. She's newly-trained (though not young) and dd is the first she's looked after, and I know that, eg the mother of one of ds's friends is thinking of using her in September.

The weird thing is, she is so teary about 'losing' dd, she has repeatedly made me swear to email photos and come back to visit - and she seems to have no idea that that's just not going to happen now.

Thank you all - I will show this to DH then send him to bluster at her

And busymum, no there was no deposit. Thanks v much for the number - I will give them a call and see if they can help me with technicalities.

Thanks again to you all. It really helps to see things more clearly.

Pay her the 3 weeks summer holiday and no more. She is being ridiculous. She has already taken her xmas/easter holidays and her paperwork is incorrect to say otherwise.

she must have down on paper the days she looked after dd, doesnt she have to keep records of when she was in the house? all you have to do is check the hours worked against amounts paid and what is left over must be hol pay. if you paid various amounts you must have had invoices specifying what she worked? or maybe i am being a bit thick here

I just don't know. If she is trying it on, she's sticking to her guns. Her attitude seems to be 'look, I am entitled to it because it says on my print-out that I've had 0 days of holidays'. And tbh she seems to be getting back-up from the state - at least, she claims to have rung someone who she claims told her to charge us the full whack plus the extra 300.

I've talked it through with a childminder friend out here, who sadly lives too far away now to look after dd, and she basically said if it says she's taken no holidays on the paperwork, then she'll get away with it. But yes, good point jura, would she actually stand up in court? I think that if we paid her 3 weeks and left the country, she'd slag us off to all and sundry and then drop it.

milknosugar, the records are weird as we pay her monthly no matter what. It's just that some of the days should have been noted as holidays, and they weren't.

So I guess we can bluster talk it over like adults and see if she'll compromise. This is really upsetting me, not least because just before she gave me the bill, I'd told her she could keep the car seat we'd lent her. And that morning, we'd given her a gorgeous framed photo of dd kissing her, which made her cry.

I really feel this comes down to her over-attachment to dd, and her disliking us for the fact that we are actually her parents. Argh.

I agree with your husband- I think you should pay her what YOU think you owe her and give her a full breakdown of what you are paying for together with your record of when she had her holiday entitlement.

I wouldn't try and ruin her reputation, personally. I think that would be unfair as she sounds like She sounds like she's been essentially very good with your daughter. "Over" attachment is great for a little kid, if understandably difficult for you. Plus, she really is being paid a very low wage, isn't she, unless she gets a massive subsidy? I'd imagine that in that context it's massively tempting for her, though absolutely wrong of course, to claim any extras she thinks she can get away with. Just don't let her get away with it! Give her what you owe and move on.

i would deffo get car seat back and if she says you said she could keep it ask her to produce the written contract, might get your point across

what about xmas day? does she have a piece of paper to say she worked xmas day? if so it would probably back up what you say about her having taken some hols

ScrummyMummy - yes she is being paid a low wage though, looking back I got it wrong, it's 400ish euros / month for a 3 day week and 500-ish for a 4 day week, and I pay various extras on top of that. She pays no tax etc on it and is subsidised on top of what I pay. Obviously this works out low but if she, for instance, added another child she'd earn twice as much, and it's been her choice not to do that - I think she wanted to get into it slowly as it's been her first year.

And yes, I think all we can do is go in there armed with paperwork and talk. I do have eg ferry tickets from Christmas with dd's name on, and various other ways of proving it, plus a contract on which she's written that she's taking a week at Xmas and another at Easter.

And yes, anyone want a car seat?
Thanks so much everyone - makes a huge difference to get some perspective on this. I am going to try to stop being quite this preoccupied by it and go to sort it out on Monday.

That's true, justabout. I would certainly warn any mate that they must be very rigorous in getting the contract right as she can try it on in that respect. But it does also sound like she provides warm loving care on the cheap to me so it would be surprising if there weren't a downside or two. I still think that MissClavel and or partner should keep their dignity, be firm and calm, pay what they owe and no more, provide a breakdown of what they've paid and why, sending copies to the state agency. I think it would be a real shame for them to end a relationship which has mostly been about someone providing good care to their child with a big ruck culminating in asking for gifts to be returned.

Can you find out who she rang and ring them up yourselves - saying that you have discovered that your child minder has been fiddling her holiday dates on the official forms, you didn't realise that she had been filling in the forms wrong - I am assuming that she is french and you are not and therefore you could maybe plead some sort of (convenient! ) ignorance of the process? And likewise that she told you the wrong information about giving written notice and is now using that to try to blackmail you out of more money...

You might find that if you speak to the official people that they will be able to help - she might have given them a slightly biased account when she rang them up, and she is hoping that you will accept her word on what they say. She may also be worried if you report her to the authorities for trying to fiddle the system - don't know what they are like in France over things like that?

Sorry, tiredness is taking its toll and I don't think I'm explaining myself very well but hopefully you get the gist of what I mean!

Good luck and let us know how it goes...

Zipzap - you're right, and I have come to the same conclusion overnight. I can certainly plead convenient language and ignorance barriers, and indeed those barriers are a big part of the problem. I'll call them in the morning. I've noticed that she's written on a form that I did give her written notice, so I'm thinking she might have to fight quite hard to get away with that one.

I'm sure she's given the official people a biased account - I very much doubt she's told them that she's never worked in school holidays, for instance. I also know she's going to claim that those were our holidays and not hers, but, for instance, she went away for a week at Easter. Which she's probably 'forgotten' by now.

Scrummymummy, yes, I'm definitely not going to ask for the photo back, and yes, she's been lovely with dd, and this is what makes me particularly upset. I wanted to leave on good terms with her because it's been a happy arrangement, and good for everyone, and I'm very cross that she's trying this on and putting us in this position now - it feels as if she just thought we'd pay up without question and she'd get away with it .

justabout - I'm going to make sure I have a chat with the friend who's going to use her, tomorrow. I've already given her a good reference (informally) but will make sure she knows to keep a very close eye on the holiday pay and contract, if she uses her.
I think that rather than falsifying things, she's going to claim to have been ready to work, and that it was us that didn't deliver dd. . Who knows. I can't wait for this to be over, one way or another. Right now I'd almost rather pay than have it dragged out.

MissClavel, just wanted to wish you good luck for tomorrow. I wondered if you couldn't phone the CAF for assistance too (I live in France also). SHe is being grossly unfair and it all sounds a bit personal though I am sure she adores your daughter. Anyway, let us know how you get on.

Thanks NicMac. I've been putting off trying the CAF as have had very convoluted bureaucratic problems with them this year - though it turned out to be URSSAF's fault not theirs and is apparently now sorted. Oh, the bureaucracy. .

But yes, as a result of that I do now have a CAF man I know fairly well, so might try him after the PMI (they're the ones CM has spoken to and rallied to her cause).

Where in France are you?

Thanks hugely for all the support. I feel much braver because of it. Will let you know how we get on tomorrow...

Am in Pau but moving very soon to the South East, Var region..Where are you? I know the admin is a nightmare here but keep trying and you might well get somewhere.