To think that marketing is partly to blame for kids hitting milestones later?

[AmpleFish]

A friend and I were having a debate earlier today. She works in a primary school and like many teachers, has noticed more and more kids coming to school without a good level of development. I suggested that it may have something to do with how products are marketed these days.

For example, dummies - the NHS recommends getting rid of these between 6 and 12 months old. However pretty much ever brand sells a product for 18+ months, some even up to 36 months. Isn’t this signaling to parents that it’s ok to give your 3 year old a dummy when in reality they should’ve stopped years ago?

Nappies are another example. Most brands go up to 17+ kg, some 19 kg. This is the average weight of a 5+ year old! They’re not marketed as night products or even a more “mature” pull up type, but normal taped nappies you’d use for a much younger child during the daytime. Again, if the product is there then parents are going to continue to use them!

Obviously I’m talking about NT children here. I understand that some ND children will need these later than recommended, but there are separate product lines for this and many older children who need nappies for example receive them free from the NHS.

Just an idea that came from this conversation earlier and wanted to see what others thought.

One factor is that there are more children with severe sen. Birth outcomes for premature babies or babies with complications are much better now but sometimes the child has autism or other learning difficulties as a result.

This has led to send school for more severely affected children being full which means setting for more mildly affected children are taking more severely affected children which means mainstream schools are needing to cater for more SEND

A GP friend told me a few years ago there are more children being born affected by foetal drug abuse after austerity. Which means more send places are taken up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-64418797?app-referrer=deep-link

In my experience day nurseries really hammer the basics - my eldest was encouraged early to use a loo. I was a bit annoyed with my youngest’s though as he was showing clear signs at home and I was encouraging before bath etc but they said no. I think it was because they were still very stretched after the pandemic though. And they didn’t want to

yes absolutely this.

We are seeing the difference in SEND schools too. 20 years ago children would listen to a story or sit still for periods of time, even with send.

scissor skills have been deteriorating for decades- and also reported by teachers I know in mainstream.

the thing is, if a child hasn’t accessed the right kind of interaction from birth to best foster social interaction skills, they will exhibit delayed social skills. Which will appear to be like autism or adhd.

the rates of autism in the population world wide are 1-2 %. Recent figures from Ireland are below:

it will be multi factoral, but the diagnostic criteria was re written in 2013. I believe there are new criteria to be written in a couple of years; they’re going to be focused more on evidenced biological factors for autism (including genes and viruses), social contexts and appropriate interventions before diagnosis.

Regarding diagnosis of adhd and autism, we must remember it’s a subjective description of behaviour, a list created by people, (some of whom are on twitter criticising their own decisions!) a description of behaviour not an explanation of why that behaviour is occurring. Down’s syndrome by comparison is an explanation.

What is more beneficial now in schools is spotting what a child is struggling with and making that a priority.

learning readiness needs to be established before any other academic learning can take place.

I mean, there’s no coincidence that a technique called “attention autism” has been developed and if followed correctly, is bloody good. You don’t need an autism dx to follow it though.

20 - 30 years ago children like your daughter were being identified and given more targeted support early on. The curriculum allowed more ability to do so.

I’ve seen a marked deterioration in the skills of teachers to do this and schools to bother for children with in eyfs, minor difficulties.

a lot of the deterioration was the way education was changed by the tories. It seems even dyslexia is being neglected now. I know many parents of children in mainstream who are paying privately for basic interventions that used to happen within schools. Some will be the pressure from more severe LD in education but a considerable amount is purely lack of teacher knowledge.

The old style nursery nurse training was extremely good for identifying these sort of needs. I’ve worked long side TAs who were trained this way and I was in awe of what they knew. They were even taught to do observations which teachers don’t get taught. (I have been due to specific training.)

Anyone trained that way will have retired by now. More recent TA training neglects that knowledge.

Older children (5 plus ) may receive some nappies from the NHS but they don't receive the full amount and they still have to buy them. Likewise for disabled adults.

Bring back surestart.

On the flip side they sell underwear for smaller kids. Aged 2 onwards.

yes

though one criticism was it was taken over by middle class mothers

I disagree. I see less older children with dummies now than I did before. As for nappies, they're sold because there is a market for them. I don't know anyone who plans their potty training around growing out of nappies.
There's been a large increase in children in formal childcare over the last few years. I think that could be a factor in development. Children aren't going to get the same level of attention and support to meet their milestones in nursery as they would being at home with a family member. Their parents are probably more stretched with both working full time. Later retirement age for women so less support from grandparents.
There are more older parents and the science shows that having children older increases the risk of disability so that is also likely to be a contributing factor.

I find this is one of the worst websites for discussing anything of these matters, nearly always the first response is some defensive tirade about SEN children and 'oh shall I just let my child starve then rather than let him eat beige' or whatever the discussion is about

The reality is, children of all ages are not being parented very well at the moment, parents want to be their kids friends, dont want to upset them, dont want to push their children, dont allow free play and for them to learn concentration, they are helicoptered, infantilised and yet expected to manage and understand big concepts like 'feeling safe', their 'mental health' and decisions and choices are put on them far too much

There is also a quite baffling theme to many threads like this which is that SEN children (and adults) are never badly behaved just because, or parents of SEN children are always great parents. Ive met just as many rubbish parents of SEN children as I have of non SEN children

Theres another thread at the moment about schools not letting kids to go the loos and how difficult that is. Apparently its never children with any SEN that have challenging behaviour or cause criminal damage in school. Its quite a strange claim at best.

So when you say marketing OP, yes there is brand and advertiser marketing for products, but there is also marketing of a culture and social norms in a way which influence how people parent and that is absolutely to blame for kids hitting milestones later.

That’s a very valid point, would be interesting to see some research into children with developmental delays and parental work status, number of hours in nursery etc

The two major changes in recent years have beeen...

• increased Funded childcare
• increase in parents working from home.

Also the 2yo ratio has increased to 1:5.

In addition, housing, utulities and fuel have increased in price drastically.

Are parents moore stressed, making choices financially best but maybe not best for the children? Having a toddler home for a few hours while working for example. Choosing a more crowded nursery. Chosing work because the £100 a week after childcare is essential

This isnt judgement.

Couldn’t agree more with you @likelysuspect .

And @BirdLandedonmyHead , I don’t think most parents whose children go to school based nurseries have realised the impact of this increase in ratios for two year olds especially.

Most school based nurseries combine the 2/3/4 year olds in one space to save money because a qualified teacher’s ratio is 1:13 for three and four year olds. This means you can have far too many children for basic safety, let alone toilet training.

I wouldn’t work again in a school based nursery if I was paid double!

My son is disabled and was in nappies untill he was 9
I dont know why anyone thinks its easiar keeping a child in nappies rather than toilet training them
It isnt
Also a NT child isnt going to want still be in nappies at five.

Do you think parents not wanting children to experience any upset could be a factor?

My nephew is nearly five and wasn't fully out of nappies till he was about four and a half.

I remember my brother saying, when nephew was about three and a half, that he'd had a couple of days without nappies but then had an accident and got upset so they put him back in nappies.

This seemed utterly bizarre to me, my children had accidents when potty training too (don't all children?) and got upset. I just cleaned them up, cuddled them and gently reminded them to use the potty. Going back to nappies because they were upset never occurred to me, I thought getting upset about accidents was just a normal part of potty training. They had to learn that to avoid the upset of accidents they needed to use the potty or toilet.

You make a very good point. I didn’t think of the phones issue

Thats very true. I suppose parents are busier today than ever before so a little convenience is bound to be sought which can translate into milestones being delayed. If you need some peace and quiet while you work etc. then a dummy is a small price to pay

All sorts! Still being in nappies, or if they’re potty trained still not able to go to the toilet independently, not able to follow basic instructions, sit still, dress themselves, cut up food etc.

Yes this is true - I think many parents have cottoned on to the fact that schools aren’t allowed to refuse their children no matter what their level of development is and so there’s less pressure to hit milestones these days

Yes I do have children. Im not suggesting they’re buying because of the age or weight on the packaging. But if I was a lazy parent and couldn’t be bothered to potty train for example, having nappies available for my 4 year old wouldn’t exactly push me to training them. In fact, the fact that they’re available reenforces the behaviour and makes me think well I can’t be the only one in this position!
same with the dummy, if I routinely gave my 3 year old a dummy to shut them up, the 36 months on the packaging tells me it’s ok

I think theres 2 arguments for nurseries because on one hand you have the increased interaction with kids their age which will hopefully lead to some peer pressure, but on the other hand already stretched staff aren’t going to be wanting to clean up continuous accidents and so training can be delayed

This is a very good point and a strange approach from your brother. Did no one say anything before DN got to 4.5? I can’t imagine having to still be changing a NT kid that old!

Society has changed a lot.
People don’t live close to family and have a village so much now, no aunties/grandparents involved every day to give advice and help out. We had sure start centres which gave advice and provided a different type of village and were good for reaching people that otherwise may struggle but they were closed down, Two parents have to work full time in most cases, children in childcare from a young age, the use of tablets and phones etc.

I will say I did buy some of the bigger pyjama pants for one of my dc who was wet at night until fairly late. Having access to these meant he could still go to things like camping with cubs etc without embarrassment as he was able to discreetly use them.